Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Jacob]

It just annoys me that so many xenophobic assholes claim they are libertarians and then point to how the government has failed to crush foreigners and jews. Like this guy. I see them all over the internet whenever you go to some libertarian group.

I didn't mean to get into some kind of weird 'flavors of libertarians' with Spicey there.

I think the basic issue is that a whole lot of right-wing xenophobes and other American right wingers not keen on the GOP have taken to calling themselves libertarians even if they don't particularly subscribe to what most political science students would call libertarianism (but rather the not uncommon "I hate the federal government unless it's used to support my particular political preferences" approach).

This causes some dilution of the brand as well as consternation among the people subscribing to some variation of actual libertarianism.

[Oexmelin]

Interestingly enough, this was the topic of this blog post by a self-described libertarian scholar (American poli. sci. prof at McGill)

https://niskanencenter.org/blog/black-liberty-matters/

[grumbler]

Well I don't think one has to actually think he is a libertarian but given that Ben Garrison calls himself that - that is one factor beyond just Raz claiming he is.

Where does he call himself a libertarian?  I just went to his website and his favorite websites are all places the alt-right types praise. He mentions a libertarian website favorably but dismisses the libertarian candidate for president while praising Rand Paul and, after him, Donald Trump.

President Trump also slapped dealt Al Gore a well-deserved setback by rejecting the Paris Climate Change Accord. That act alone caused me to applause. The climate change farce is nothing but globalism in disguise. Gore stood to rake in fabulous riches with the ruse. Our sun warms and cools—it's cyclical. The climate is always changing to some degree. Yet the sun is ignored and carbon, a building block of life, is impugned by the Illuminati. Trump isn't going along with the canard and is placing America's best interests first. Hallelujah...

Obama decapitated, weakened and feminized our military. Trump has had enough of that nonsense. He announced that transexuals would not be allowed in the military. Patton would have vigorously slapped such political correctness right in the face and so did Trump. It's glorious.

Sounds like he's not claiming to be libertarian at all.  He sounds just like any mouthbreather at Breibart.

https://grrrgraphics.com/about/

[grumbler]

I've always thought the foundational belief of libertarianism is that the greatest good is individual human freedom (hence the name), not that the greatest good is the smallest government.  The second is a means to an end.

Yes.  Libertarians are, at least in theory, just classic liberals hampered by the misuse of the term "liberal" in the US. 

[Razgovory]

I think the reason libertarians draw higher scrutiny, which they can very rarely withstand, is that "because liberty" argument carries a lot more moral high ground than "because it's the Democrat way" or "because it's the GOP way".  Therefore, if the person making that argument is applying libertarian ideology selectively, he's not deserving of the extra legitimacy he tries to claim for his views.  People that try to claim the moral high ground but are not in fact deserving of it tend to irritate other people greatly.

Also they seem to produce a disproportionate number of lunatics and racists.

[Razgovory]

All I have for insight is a couple FB friends who apparently bit into the Pizzagate thing hook, line & sinker.  They were careful enough to couch their statements, but it was clear they bought it.  They seem convinced that there is an acute tendency among leftist/Hollywood elites and other groups of people toward child abuse, trafficking, even sacrifice-- with Satanism thrown into the mix. 

I guess sometimes you just create your own demons where none really exist.  It's not enough for the other side to be wrong-- they have to be 100% evil.

So your friends were to the Democrats as Raz is to "libertarians"? 

Garrison is a bog-standard alt-right Trumpeter, but Raz seemly has to make him "libertarian" to really hate him.

Indeed. There is nothing about Garrison that makes one think "Oh, he is a libertarian".

If Raz could claim he is an atheist as well, he would.

Well I don't think one has to actually think he is a libertarian but given that Ben Garrison calls himself that - that is one factor beyond just Raz claiming he is.

But that isn't why Raz wants to call him out - because his crazy ass cartoon is somehow obviously indicative of a typical libertarian mindset, and hence *obviously* that is what libertarians mostly think, and not just what this guy thinks.

Fair enough.

No, it's not.  I would have called him out even if he was not a libertarian.  The picture was posted, and just begging to be called out.  I can only assume that a political cartoonist his politics reflect his work.

Perhaps Grumbler and Berkut would like his earlier cartoons where before Trump and where he attacks both "Tribes".

[Razgovory]

Look's like typical Ron Paul Nuttery to me.

[CountDeMoney]

Dude, stop it.

[Eddie Teach]

So one guy who supported Ron Paul now supports Trump. Mind blown.

[Savonarola]

Yesterday, on Facebook, one of my friends compared the Federal governments reaction to hurricane Maria to Katrina; and demanded that Trump restore power right away.  She lives in Michigan.

[dps]

Yesterday, on Facebook, one of my friends compared the Federal governments reaction to hurricane Maria to Katrina; and demanded that Trump restore power right away.  She lives in Michigan.

Did she think that the President was going to start personally stringing back up downed power lines, just 'cause she said for him to?

[Ed Anger]

I'll keep the Ben Garrison cartoons to myself from now on. Sheesh.

[Valmy]

I'll keep the Ben Garrison cartoons to myself from now on. Sheesh.

It looks like Raz posted them all for you anyway.

[dps]

Statism is a strong term, but yeah it is a contradiction.  Politics has lots of 'em though.

Well they can claim to be whatever they want but they are not libertarians.

That seems a bit silly.  So unless you score 100% on the libertarian test you can't call yourself a libertarian?

No but you at least have to score 100% on the basics. Otherwise you are a liar. If you don't think government works and is evil then you cannot say 'oh but we need it to do this set of very important priorities'. Then it sounds like you do think government works and should be used for important priorities, you just disagree on what those priorities should be.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this.  I tend to subscribe to the school of thought that believes that the government that governs best governs least;  I don't think it's hypocritical to hold that view and still think that there are legitimate things that we need government for.

[Jacob]

I'm not sure I agree with you on this.  I tend to subscribe to the school of thought that believes that the government that governs best governs least;  I don't think it's hypocritical to hold that view and still think that there are legitimate things that we need government for.

Yeah that's potentially true - it somewhat depends on the things you think are legitimate applications of governments.

In my view, there are broadly few different broad ways to be libertarian:

1) Proceeding from a broad principle of minimal government, except in a handful of specific areas - typically (I think) some set of  key infrastructure parts, foreign policy, military (for self-defence), a legal system to arbitrate and enforce contracts and criminal law, plus a handful of others depending on flavour (education, disaster relief, basic research, maybe some other ones). The idea here being that the abundance of liberty creates the best possible outcomes in the long term, and where it doesn't it's your own fault so that's a just outcome as well. I don't mind it as a philosophy - and it's definitely possible to hold to it as a decent human being - but I think it's impractical and will lead to pretty terrible outcomes if applied strictly.

2) A milder version where maximizing liberty is seen as an important value - especially in a few key areas (usually idiosyncratic to the holder of the belief) - and it is general the default starting position. Nonetheless this kind of libertarianism is willing to be pragmatic and prioritize better outcomes over ideological purity.  This kind of libertarian can cover a wide range of positions and actual beliefs. Ultimately here it comes down to how pragmatic they are and, probably even more importantly, which things they consider "better outcomes".

3) This is really a variation of 2) above where "both better outcomes" and "liberty" seem to mean "benefits me or people like me directly" and/ or "inconveniences or hurts people of whom I disapprove". In this case, "libertarian" seems more of a hollow label.