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Don’t erase Woodrow Wilson. Expose him.

Started by garbon, November 26, 2015, 08:23:33 AM

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Admiral Yi

Quote from: LaCroix on November 27, 2015, 02:51:24 AM
misinterpreted your post, thought you were saying the decision was an egregious example of PC. i.e., an outlier but still PC. if you're not saying this, then how would you reconcile yogagate with a lecturer who makes women jokes and gets fired? both are "PC" under your definition. are they equal instances of PC?

Equal on what scale?

To try to answer your question, I think there are cases in which spokespeople for protected minorities claim offense which are reasonable, and some that are not.

Legbiter

What went so horribly wrong in the upbringing of these millenials that they're now demanding that university campuses be turned into giant open-air preschools?  :hmm:
Posted using 100% recycled electrons.

garbon

Quote from: Legbiter on November 27, 2015, 06:09:17 AM
What went so horribly wrong in the upbringing of these millenials that they're now demanding that university campuses be turned into giant open-air preschools?  :hmm:

Well there is a long tradition of people wanting monuments, honors, etc. removed for individuals they think are undeserving. Just in this case, I think they are woefully misguided in those calls.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

jimmy olsen

Quote from: Legbiter on November 27, 2015, 06:09:17 AM
What went so horribly wrong in the upbringing of these millenials that they're now demanding that university campuses be turned into giant open-air preschools?  :hmm:

First of all, I want to make it clear that Wilson was a shit president, over rated more than any other with exception of Jefferson.

Secondly, the problem starts in High School.

Quote


The Yale Problem Begins in High School

by Jonathan Haidt | Nov 24, 2015 | campus turmoil, free speech | 218 comments

A month before the Yale Halloween meltdown, I had a bizarre and illuminating experience at an elite private high school on the West Coast. I'll call it Centerville High. I gave a version of a talk that you can see here, on Coddle U. vs. Strengthen U. (In an amazing coincidence, I first gave that talk at Yale a few weeks earlier). The entire student body — around 450 students, from grades 9-12 — were in the auditorium. There was plenty of laughter at all the right spots, and a lot of applause at the end, so I thought the talk was well received.

But then the discussion began, and it was the most unremittingly hostile questioning I've ever had. I don't mind when people ask hard or critical questions, but I was surprised that I had misread the audience so thoroughly. My talk had little to do with gender, but the second question was "So you think rape is OK?" Like most of the questions, it was backed up by a sea of finger snaps — the sort you can hear in the infamous Yale video, where a student screams at Prof. Christakis to "be quiet" and tells him that he is "disgusting." I had never heard the snapping before. When it happens in a large auditorium it is disconcerting. It makes you feel that you are facing an angry and unified mob — a feeling I have never had in 25 years of teaching and public speaking.

After the first dozen questions I noticed that not a single questioner was male. I began to search the sea of hands asking to be called on and I did find one boy, who asked a question that indicated that he too was critical of my talk. But other than him, the 200 or so boys in the audience sat silently.

After the Q&A, I got a half-standing ovation: almost all of the boys in the room stood up to cheer. And after the crowd broke up, a line of boys came up to me to thank me and shake my hand. Not a single girl came up to me afterward.

After my main lecture, the next session involved 60 students who had signed up for further discussion with me. We moved to a large classroom. The last thing I wanted to do was to continue the same fruitless arguing for another 75 minutes, so I decided to take control of the session and reframe the discussion. Here is what happened next:

Quote

    Me: What kind of intellectual climate do you want here at Centerville? Would you rather have option A: a school where people with views you find offensive keep their mouths shut, or B: a school where everyone feels that they can speak up in class discussions?

    Audience: All hands go up for B.

    Me: OK, let's see if you have that. When there is a class discussion about gender issues, do you feel free to speak up and say what you are thinking? Or do you feel that you are walking on eggshells and you must heavily censor yourself? Just the girls in the class, raise your hand if you feel you can speak up? [about 70% said they feel free, vs about 10% who said eggshells ]. Now just the boys? [about 80% said eggshells, nobody said they feel free].

    Me: Now let's try it for race. When a topic related to race comes up in class, do you feel free to speak up and say what you are thinking, or do you feel that you are walking on eggshells and you must heavily censor yourself? Just the non-white students? [the group was around 30% non-white, mostly South and East Asians, and some African Americans. A majority said they felt free to speak, although a large minority said eggshells] Now just the white students? [A large majority said eggshells]

    Me: Now lets try it for politics. How many of you would say you are on the right politically, or that you are conservative or Republican? [6 hands went up, out of 60 students]. Just you folks, when politically charged topics come up, can you speak freely? [Only one hand went up, but that student clarified that everyone gets mad at him when he speaks up, but he does it anyway. The other 5 said eggshells.] How many of you are on the left, liberal, or democrat? [Most hands go up] Can you speak freely, or is it eggshells? [Almost all said they can speak freely.]

    Me: So let me get this straight. You were unanimous in saying that you want your school to be a place where people feel free to speak up, even if you strongly dislike their views. But you don't have such a school. In fact, you have exactly the sort of "tolerance" that Herbert Marcuse advocated [which I had discussed in my lecture, and which you can read about here]. You have a school in which only people in the preferred groups get to speak, and everyone else is afraid. What are you going to do about this? Let's talk.

After that, the conversation was extremely civil and constructive. The boys took part just as much as the girls. We talked about what Centerville could do to improve its climate, and I said that the most important single step would be to make viewpoint diversity a priority. On the entire faculty, there was not a single teacher that was known to be conservative or Republican. So if these teenagers are coming into political consciousness inside of a "moral matrix" that is uniformly leftist, there will always be anger directed at those who disrupt that consensus.

That night, after I gave a different talk to an adult audience, there was a reception at which I spoke with some of the parents. Several came up to me to tell me that their sons had told them about the day's events. The boys finally had a way to express and explain their feelings of discouragement. Their parents were angry to learn about how their sons were being treated and... there's no other word for it, bullied into submission by the girls.*

And Centerville High is not alone. Last summer I had a conversation with some boys who attend one of the nation's top prep schools, in New England. They reported the same thing: as white males, they are constantly on eggshells, afraid to speak up on any remotely controversial topic lest they be sent to the "equality police" (that was their term for the multicultural center). I probed to see if their fear extended  beyond the classroom. I asked them what they would do if there was a new student at their school, from, say Yemen. Would they feel free to ask the student questions about his or her country? No, they said, it's too risky, a question could be perceived as offensive.

You might think that this is some sort of justice — white males have enjoyed positions of privilege for centuries, and now they are getting a taste of their own medicine. But these are children. And remember that most students who are in a victim group for one topic are in the "oppressor" group for another. So everyone is on eggshells sometimes; all students at Centerville High learn to engage with books, ideas, and people using the twin habits of defensive self-censorship and vindictive protectiveness.

And then... they go off to college and learn new ways to gain status by expressing collective anger at those who disagree. They curse professors and spit on visiting speakers at Yale. They shut down newspapers at Wesleyan. They torment a dean who was trying to help them at Claremont McKenna. They threaten and torment fellow students at Dartmouth. And in all cases, they demand that adults in power DO SOMETHING to punish those whose words and views offend them. Their high schools have thoroughly socialized them into what sociologists call victimhood culture, which weakens students by turning them into "moral dependents" who cannot deal with problems on their own. They must get adult authorities to validate their victim status.

So they issue ultimatums to college presidents, and, as we saw at Yale, the college presidents meet their deadlines, give them much of what they demanded, commit their schools to an ever tighter embrace of victimhood culture, and say nothing to criticize the bullying, threats, and intimidation tactics that have created a culture of intense fear for anyone who might even consider questioning the prevailing moral matrix. What do you suppose a conversation about race or gender will look like in any Yale classroom ten years from now? Who will dare to challenge the orthodox narrative imposed by victimhood culture? The "Next Yale" that activists are demanding will make today's Centerville High look like Plato's Academy by comparison.

The only hope for Centerville High — and for Yale — is to disrupt their repressively uniform moral matrices to make room for dissenting views. High schools and colleges that lack viewpoint diversity should make it their top priority. Race and gender diversity matter too, but if those goals are pursued in the ways that student activists are currently demanding, then political orthodoxy is likely to intensify. Schools that value freedom of thought should therefore actively seek out non-leftist faculty, and they should explicitly include viewpoint diversity and political diversity in all statements about diversity and discrimination.** Parents and students who value freedom of thought should take viewpoint diversity into account when applying to colleges. Alumni should take it into account before writing any more checks.

The Yale problem refers to an unfortunate feedback loop: Once you allow victimhood culture to spread on your campus, you can expect ever more anger from students representing victim groups, coupled with demands for a deeper institutional commitment to victimhood culture, which leads inexorably to more anger, more demands, and more commitment. But the Yale problem didn't start at Yale. It started in high school. As long as many of our elite prep schools are turning out students who have only known eggshells and anger, whose social cognition is limited to a single dimension of victims and victimizers, and who demand safe spaces and trigger warnings, it's hard to imagine how any university can open students' minds and prepare them to converse respectfully with people who don't share their values. Especially when there are no adults around who don't share their values.

*  *  *  *  *

Post Scripts:

*My original draft of this post included the phrase "with the blessing of the teachers" at this point. But this was unfair and I regret it. The Centerville teachers I met were all very friendly to me, even after my talk. I think they could do more to counter the intimidation felt by students with minority viewpoints, but I have no reason to think that the teachers at Centerville are anything other than caring professionals who try to curate class discussions without inserting their own views. Indeed, the comments from "Centerville" students below, in the comment threads, indicate that the intimidation comes primarily from other students, not from the teachers. This is a pattern I have seen at universities as well.

**To help high schools and colleges measure the scale of their problem, we at HeterodoxAcademy will develop an "Eggshellometer" – a simple anonymous survey that can be distributed to all students, or to all faculty for that matter – that can be used to quantify the degree to which members of an academic community live in fear. In the meantime, if you are a teacher, you can use the simple "show of hands" method that I described above, or you can easily turn it into an anonymous paper and pencil survey.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

garbon

Of course, I'm not sure how helpful it was in my 'open' high school and university to have white people talking about how they didn't really think racism was much of a problem anymore / they didn't really know much about racism but still would be damned if they were going to be silent during discussion section...
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Legbiter

Probably about as helpful as having all those cisgendered shitlords mouthing off constantly and being all oppressively gendernormative and shit.

Posted using 100% recycled electrons.

grumbler

Quote from: garbon on November 27, 2015, 09:27:19 AM
Of course, I'm not sure how helpful it was in my 'open' high school and university to have white people talking about how they didn't really think racism was much of a problem anymore / they didn't really know much about racism but still would be damned if they were going to be silent during discussion section...

If you don't find the views of others "helpful" in understanding the world and its people (even when you disagree with it), then you should probably seek a refund from that high school and university.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

jimmy olsen

Quote from: grumbler on November 27, 2015, 09:44:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 27, 2015, 09:27:19 AM
Of course, I'm not sure how helpful it was in my 'open' high school and university to have white people talking about how they didn't really think racism was much of a problem anymore / they didn't really know much about racism but still would be damned if they were going to be silent during discussion section...

If you don't find the views of others "helpful" in understanding the world and its people (even when you disagree with it), then you should probably seek a refund from that high school and university.

Yeah, even if they're wrong, understanding the views that a great many other people have is important.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

garbon

Yes, I needed high school and university to teach me that most people are mostly indifferent to issues of race. :rolleyes:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

garbon

Quote from: Legbiter on November 27, 2015, 09:38:56 AM
Probably about as helpful as having all those cisgendered shitlords mouthing off constantly and being all oppressively gendernormative and shit.



Well yes, it was actually a negative in my life to have straight people pushing their gender role behaviors / telling me that homosexuality is wrong. :hmm:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

crazy canuck

Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 26, 2015, 09:56:54 PM
Quote from: LaCroix on November 26, 2015, 09:17:01 PM
"not giving offense" is a rule of society. "political correctness" is kind of a meaningless term that really just describes a societal shift. you had "not giving offense" rules that "sacrificed free expression" back in the 1950s. like you couldn't promote feminism without getting censured.

(edit) what i'm saying is everyone has always subscribed to political correctness. i don't see how you could form a society without political correctness. "political correctness," the term, is a modern political term created by people who want to express ideas modern society now considers vulgar/offensive.

Unless you have a very strange definition of modern society, modern society does not consider non-Indians doing or teaching yoga vulgar.

How very imperialist of you.

Valmy

Quote from: crazy canuck on November 27, 2015, 11:36:53 AM

How very imperialist of you.

Aren't you the guy always bragging about all then foreign culture stuff he does? How well does that jackboot fit? Huh?
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Valmy

Quote from: garbon on November 27, 2015, 11:29:57 AM
Yes, I needed high school and university to teach me that most people are mostly indifferent to issues of race. :rolleyes:

This is why I always hated 'discussion sections'

I don't need to be reminded that most of my peers are idiots prof.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

garbon

Quote from: Valmy on November 27, 2015, 11:49:51 AM
Quote from: garbon on November 27, 2015, 11:29:57 AM
Yes, I needed high school and university to teach me that most people are mostly indifferent to issues of race. :rolleyes:

This is why I always hated 'discussion sections'

I don't need to be reminded that most of my peers are idiots prof.

Indeed. Really discussion sections were the worst. I'm there to learn from the prof, not my peers who best case know just about as much as me on the given subject. :D
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Martinus

Quote from: garbon on November 27, 2015, 11:35:40 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on November 27, 2015, 09:38:56 AM
Probably about as helpful as having all those cisgendered shitlords mouthing off constantly and being all oppressively gendernormative and shit.



Well yes, it was actually a negative in my life to have straight people pushing their gender role behaviors / telling me that homosexuality is wrong. :hmm:

How dare you impose your views on their beautiful culture and religion like that.  :mad: