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Climate Change/Mass Extinction Megathread

Started by Syt, November 17, 2015, 05:50:30 AM

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Sheilbh

Interesting debate on the IRA in the US.

The EU has sent a list of complaints about this because bits of it are pretty clearly in breach of the US' WTO obligations, especially around EV batteries. But the EU's complaint is far wider as basically anti-WTO obligations and discriminatory against EU producers. The EU is threatening to take this to the WTO but at the minute have just issued a list of their issues to the US Treasury. So they're not happy with the EV battery stuff, but other complaints include tax credits for renewables and "clean energy", tax credits for hyrdogen and advanced manufacturing for renewables etc.

But it's really interesting because there is a dilemma/depends of perspective here. The EU line is basically that the US is clearly using climate as an excuse for old fashioned protectionism, plus massive bungs for domestic production/buidling up domestic industry. That's basically right from my understanding.

I think the line from the US/Biden would be that the way to get significant funding/policies on climate in the US is to basically link it to national security and a "green industrial complex". I think that's probably also right.

From a purely climate/decarbonisation perspective the impact of the IRA is huge. I think the IRA is transformative and at its heart is an awareness that the US is becoming and doesn't want to be dependent of China for the materials of energy transition. Without the China angle and the domestic bungs, I think there's zero chance the US passes a law this signficant for decarbonisation. So my instinct is it's worth it because I think the decarbonisation is more important than trade rules and I worry about the China angle of decarbonisation.

But it struck me as an interesting case of where priorities sit and how we think about government policy towards the economy in the context of climate - as I say I think it maybe boils down to how seriously people declaring a climate "emergency" take that state of "emergency" given what that implies.
Let's bomb Russia!

Josquius

They really should have come up with a better name than one with the inevitable IRA acronym.

Sounds like a clear case of friendshoring needing to get official recognition.
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Crazy_Ivan80

#2402
Quote from: Tamas on November 08, 2022, 01:17:13 PMI have only been going by the first page highlights on The Guardian, but is COP27 about anything else other than small countries trying to get blank checks from the big ones?

draining, if not destroying western affluence, is and always has been part of the concept. Environment is just the means.
not that surprising since far too many of these groups trend towards the authoritarian left.

Josquius

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 13, 2022, 05:11:28 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 08, 2022, 01:17:13 PMI have only been going by the first page highlights on The Guardian, but is COP27 about anything else other than small countries trying to get blank checks from the big ones?

draining, if not destroying western affluence, is and always has been part of the concept. Environment is just the means.
not that surprising since far too many of these groups trend towards the authoritarian left.
:lmfao:
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Tamas

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 13, 2022, 05:11:28 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 08, 2022, 01:17:13 PMI have only been going by the first page highlights on The Guardian, but is COP27 about anything else other than small countries trying to get blank checks from the big ones?

draining, if not destroying western affluence, is and always has been part of the concept. Environment is just the means.
not that surprising since far too many of these groups trend towards the authoritarian left.

Just because the nihilistic right ignores it doesn't make it non-existent, though.

Crazy_Ivan80

Quote from: Tamas on November 14, 2022, 07:29:38 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on November 13, 2022, 05:11:28 PM
Quote from: Tamas on November 08, 2022, 01:17:13 PMI have only been going by the first page highlights on The Guardian, but is COP27 about anything else other than small countries trying to get blank checks from the big ones?

draining, if not destroying western affluence, is and always has been part of the concept. Environment is just the means.
not that surprising since far too many of these groups trend towards the authoritarian left.

Just because the nihilistic right ignores it doesn't make it non-existent, though.

true, and being tricked into a never ending guilt-complex by the left is not going to help anyone. Least of all ourselves.

Syt

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/faucets-poised-run-dry-hundreds-arizona-residents-years-end-rcna57550

QuoteFaucets poised to run dry for hundreds of Arizona residents by year's end

As drought tightens its grip on the West, the city of Scottsdale says it will no longer allow private trucking companies to haul water to the desert community of Rio Verde Foothills.

RIO VERDE FOOTHILLS, Ariz. — More than 500 homes in this affluent desert community that boasts mountain views, ample trees and ranches hidden in the crooks of scrubby hills will run out of water by year's end as drought tightens its grip on the West.

Residents of Rio Verde Foothills outside Scottsdale have tried for years to resolve the looming crisis to no avail as the deadline to stop their water deliveries draws closer, forcing individual homeowners to find their own sources of water for drinking, bathing, washing dishes or doing their laundry.

"It's going to be really ugly and terrible for our homeowners and landowners," said Karen Nabity, who has lived in Rio Verde Foothills for seven years. "Some of us will borrow water from a friend's well, others will have to pay a water hauler from far away."

As climate change makes the Western United States hotter and drier, the looming crisis in Rio Verde Foothills exemplifies how cities and states could be forced to vie for a diminishing amount of the natural resource.

The rural community of about 2,200 homes in unincorporated Maricopa County does not have its own water system, and most residents get their water from private wells on their properties. But more than 500 homeowners rely strictly on truck haulers to deliver water from a standpipe in Scottsdale. Another 200 whose wells are running dry periodically use the water haulers, as well, residents say.

But a year ago, Scottsdale notified Rio Verde homeowners that its water supply would be limited to city residents only starting Jan. 1, 2023, barring trucking companies from purchasing and exporting its water.

The notice came nearly a decade after Scottsdale first asked Rio Verde residents to search for an alternative water source, city officials said.

Scottsdale Water, the municipal utility, said the decision was one element of a larger contingency plan by the Central Arizona Project, which delivers water from the Colorado River to central and southern Arizona, to reduce its consumption. Scottsdale residents also were urged to reduce their usage as a first step toward more stringent restrictions.

The contingency plan was activated after the federal Bureau of Reclamation, which oversees Colorado River operations, declared a "Tier 1" shortage in August 2021 for the first time. The declaration reduces the amount of water Arizona, Nevada and Mexico can get from the river, which supplies water to about 40 million people in the Western U.S. The tier goes up as river levels go down, with Tier 3 being the most severe.

Some Rio Verde Foothills residents said they don't know how such an important issue could have dragged on so long without a resolution.

"It's a priority because why wouldn't we want to solve this problem," said Jennifer Simpson, who was drawn to Rio Verde Foothills 23 years ago by its wide-open spaces.

Maricopa County officials said they can't fix the problem because they're not water providers. Scottsdale officials said they have no other option because their first commitment is to their own residents.

In Rio Verde Foothills, a sprawling community bisected by horse ranches and dusty gravel roads, the impending cutoff is likely to translate into much higher costs to have water shipped in from locations at least 60 miles away.

Some property owners thought they had solved the problem when they banded together to try to create their own water improvement district. But the plan was dashed this year when the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors voted down their petition, saying the majority of residents didn't want the proposed district because it could potentially lead to some of their properties being condemned to build a new water delivery system.

A Canada-based water company, Epcor Utilities, filed an application in October to supply Rio Verde Foothills with water, said Nick Debus, a spokesman for the Arizona Corporation Commission, a state agency that regulates private water.

If the project were approved, he said, the utility would have to acquire land, construct a standpipe and drill a new well, which could take two to three years.

Though water supply costs vary widely, rates for Rio Verde residents would increase exponentially to $20 for 1,000 gallons of water delivered, according to the application. The average Scottsdale resident pays $1.65 for 1,000 gallons and residents of nearby Glendale pay 33 cents for the same amount, according to KPNX, the NBC affiliate in Phoenix. Collectively, Rio Verde uses 48 million gallons of water a year, according to its residents.

Thomas Loquvam, general counsel for Epcor, said the commission asked the utility to provide water for residents, who would foot the bill for the project, resulting in the higher rates. Only homes built before 2024 would receive water from the proposed district, he added.

Although unfamiliar with the details, Rio Verde Foothills resident Adam Zingg said he prefers Epcor over a water improvement district because the latter would create another layer of government.

"We need as a community to find a solution," he said. "I'm sure that if there's no access to water, we'd be up in arms."


Many Rio Verde Foothills residents say they feel abandoned.

"I'm frustrated and flabbergasted," said Simpson, the 23-year resident. "We're sitting here still waiting."
If we want to prevent catastrophic economic and societal change we will have to radically change our climate system.

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

The Larch

Maybe this people will end up realizing that living in the desert is not a great idea.

Berkut

Quote from: The Larch on November 18, 2022, 05:08:18 AMMaybe this people will end up realizing that living in the desert is not a great idea.
It really seems like getting water should be a solvable technical problem.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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The Larch

Quote from: Berkut on November 18, 2022, 08:55:01 AM
Quote from: The Larch on November 18, 2022, 05:08:18 AMMaybe this people will end up realizing that living in the desert is not a great idea.
It really seems like getting water should be a solvable technical problem.

That something is technically solvable doesn't mean that it's the best possible solution to a problem. Not to mention the cost of that solution.

Berkut

Quote from: The Larch on November 18, 2022, 08:57:20 AM
Quote from: Berkut on November 18, 2022, 08:55:01 AM
Quote from: The Larch on November 18, 2022, 05:08:18 AMMaybe this people will end up realizing that living in the desert is not a great idea.
It really seems like getting water should be a solvable technical problem.

That something is technically solvable doesn't mean that it's the best possible solution to a problem. Not to mention the cost of that solution.

"Technically solvable" includes the assumption that the "solving" it is affordable as well. 

We know that we can simply create water if cost was not an object. That isn't what I am talking about.

I just wonder if this is a resource allocation problem. IE, the "market" hasn't decided that investing a bunch of money in researching how to (as an example) desalinate salt water is a worthy risk. Kind of like how the "market" won't invest in a viable, multi-spectrum flu vaccine, even though the societal return on such an investment would be immense.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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The Larch

I see what you mean, I thought you were talking on the purely technical side. And yes, it's true that a lot has to do with resource allocation, and this has mainly to do with agriculture, as on the broader picture human consumption of water is a small % of the total water consumption.

In the case of that particular community the problem seems to be that they simply don't have enough water at the local level to satisfy their direct needs, which is a bit more straight forward, though. If they manage by simply getting their water by truck from far away locations, as long as it's economically viable they can keep going at it, I guess, but that's a cost that is only going up. Also, most of the time the direct cost of water to their users doesn't really reflect its true value.

Admiral Yi

What exactly is the point of COP27 and who's idea was it to light up the entire Nile Valley?

mongers

Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2022, 09:07:56 PMWhat exactly is the point of COP27 and who's idea was it to light up the entire Nile Valley?

Wavell's in about 1941, I think a magician was also involved. :bowler:
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

Crazy_Ivan80

Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2022, 09:07:56 PMWhat exactly is the point of COP27 and who's idea was it to light up the entire Nile Valley?

crippling the western countries, as always. By blackmail or guilttripping.