Soon illegal to perform private paternity tests in Germany?

Started by Drakken, June 26, 2009, 09:19:17 AM

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alfred russel

#60
June 26, 2009, 10:35:24 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 26, 2009, 10:33:25 AM

All true, but I don't quite get your point. Are you saying it should be legal because it is so easy to do despite it being illegal? Or is your point just that it can't be enforced anyway so we should not care about it being legal or illegal?

The second one.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

Valmy

#61
June 26, 2009, 10:39:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 26, 2009, 10:33:55 AM
You would be surprised, but most European countries, while allowing abortion-on-demand, have very strict time limits on abortions. Usually we try to find a middle-ground compromise here, rather than adopting an all-or-nothing approach that seems to be the case in the US. I think late term abortion are uniformly illegal, unless mother's life is in danger.

Well we probably would have eventually found a middle ground eventually as well.  But, unfortunately, it seems we have the system we do.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

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Valmy

#62
June 26, 2009, 10:40:53 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 26, 2009, 10:34:08 AM
There was an interesting article on slate.com that showed statistics indicating that it is a problem in the US.

Depressing but not terribly surprising.  Having legal abortion means a certain number of people are going to get abortions for petty reasons.

What sort of stats?  Our gender ratios at birth don't seem out of wack with what other countries have.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Zanza

#63
June 26, 2009, 10:42:59 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2009, 10:31:45 AMThat is an interesting assumption but what are the limits of abortions in Germany?  I presume you don't have to give a reason for an abortion and could easily have it if you wanted to just keep aborting until you got your gender of choice, but really is this even a problem in Germany?
Abortions are only legal in the first 12 weeks and only after the woman has gotten consultation (not by the performing doctor) and waited three days. Abortions after the 12th week are only legal for medical reasons that directly threaten the life of the mother.

alfred russel

#64
June 26, 2009, 10:45:06 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2009, 10:40:53 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 26, 2009, 10:34:08 AM
There was an interesting article on slate.com that showed statistics indicating that it is a problem in the US.

Depressing but not terribly surprising.  Having legal abortion means a certain number of people are going to get abortions for petty reasons.

What sort of stats?  Our gender ratios at birth don't seem out of wack with what other countries have.

The gist of the article was that if you break down gender ratios among ethnic groups that have a longer history in the US, they are consistent among the first, second, third, etc. children. But among certain ethnic groups--basically a couple of them from Asia--later children skew male at a significant rate when the other children born were female.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

alfred russel

#65
June 26, 2009, 10:46:07 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 26, 2009, 10:42:59 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2009, 10:31:45 AMThat is an interesting assumption but what are the limits of abortions in Germany?  I presume you don't have to give a reason for an abortion and could easily have it if you wanted to just keep aborting until you got your gender of choice, but really is this even a problem in Germany?
Abortions are only legal in the first 12 weeks and only after the woman has gotten consultation (not by the performing doctor) and waited three days. Abortions after the 12th week are only legal for medical reasons that directly threaten the life of the mother.

Are abortions free? That is probably a factor that pushes a lot of abortions in this country later term--people don't have the money on hand.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

Valmy

#66
June 26, 2009, 10:51:37 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 26, 2009, 10:42:59 AM
Abortions are only legal in the first 12 weeks and only after the woman has gotten consultation (not by the performing doctor) and waited three days. Abortions after the 12th week are only legal for medical reasons that directly threaten the life of the mother.

Man I wish we had something similar over here.  Of course all the mother would need to do would be to find a doctor willing to say it was a threat to her life is that right?
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Zanza

#67
June 26, 2009, 10:55:31 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 26, 2009, 10:46:07 AMAre abortions free? That is probably a factor that pushes a lot of abortions in this country later term--people don't have the money on hand.
From Wiki: Abortions for medical reasons or because the woman was raped are paid for by the health insurance. Abortions on demand have to be paid for by the woman (apparently it costs about 500 euro) unless they are too poor in which case the welfare office will pay for them.

jimmy olsen

#68
June 26, 2009, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 26, 2009, 10:14:18 AM
Anyway, judging from some posts in this thread, the title should be changed to:

Pudgy, unremarkable guys scared shitless of being cuckolded, freak out.

Come on now, wouldn't it be better if you got to raise kids of someone with a superior genetic material? :D
Valmy is not pudgy.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
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jimmy olsen

#69
June 26, 2009, 10:58:44 AM
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on June 26, 2009, 10:22:58 AM
If only this guy had access to paternal testing, he'd know for sure if he's the father. 


How do you know that kid wasn't adopted?
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Valmy

#70
June 26, 2009, 11:00:30 AM Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 11:03:59 AM by Valmy
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 26, 2009, 10:58:16 AM
Valmy is not pudgy.

Nor do I really care or worry about about being cuckolded.  I rely on relationships with people, not legal shit, to manage my life.

But still there are principals involved here.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Zanza

#71
June 26, 2009, 11:02:04 AM Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 11:04:22 AM by Zanza
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2009, 10:51:37 AMMan I wish we had something similar over here.  Of course all the mother would need to do would be to find a doctor willing to say it was a threat to her life is that right?
Sure. But if it comes out both the doctor and the woman may be charged with abortion which carries imprisonment or fines as punishment. And the doctor would almost certainly lose his license to practice too.

Reading the law, it is apparently possible to get an abortion on medical reasons for psychiatric complications, not just life-threating conditions. Not sure what that covers though.

Valmy

#72
June 26, 2009, 11:03:16 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 26, 2009, 11:02:04 AM
Sure. But if it comes out both the doctor and the woman may be charged with abortion which carries imprisonment or fines as punishment. And the doctor would almost certainly lose his license to practice too.

How would they determine that?  I mean theoretically our abortion is based on the same idea: protecting doctors and their judgements on when a baby should be aborted.  But in practice it just means legal abortions for all.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Martinus

#73
June 26, 2009, 11:16:26 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2009, 10:51:37 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 26, 2009, 10:42:59 AM
Abortions are only legal in the first 12 weeks and only after the woman has gotten consultation (not by the performing doctor) and waited three days. Abortions after the 12th week are only legal for medical reasons that directly threaten the life of the mother.

Man I wish we had something similar over here.  Of course all the mother would need to do would be to find a doctor willing to say it was a threat to her life is that right?

I am not sure how it works in Germany, but I would assume it's not a matter of "opinion shopping" but rather you get directed to some independent doctor or commission that gets assigned to your application.

Zanza

#74
June 26, 2009, 11:17:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 26, 2009, 11:03:16 AMHow would they determine that?  I mean theoretically our abortion is based on the same idea: protecting doctors and their judgements on when a baby should be aborted.  But in practice it just means legal abortions for all.

No idea, I guess there are precendents set by high level courts which conditions do or do not constitute a medical reason. As with all malpractice it is probably hard to prove though.

Also note the addition to my previous post: medical reasons can also be psychological/psychatric conditions which are not life-threatening. The usual case for that is that there are serious genetic disorders in the child and the psychological stress of the mother would be too much. In those cases, the child may be aborted - for the health of the mother.

Medical reasons account for about 4% of all abortions in Germany apparently (the rest being almost all on-demand-abortions in the first 12 weeks), so I guess the criteria are sufficiently stringent.
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