Routine Shootings at US Schools and Universities Megathread.

[Berkut]

If I was one of the guys outside that classroom, and I was told "Do not go", I think I would tell everyone around me "OK, we hold off, but the moment I hear anything inside that suggests someone needs to be saved, we go orders or not - lets be ready to do that".

My thinking would be dominated by the fact that there were kids lying on the floor bleeding out, and that every moment of delay involves the likelihood that someone is dying who could have been saved if I'd just acted.  Go in both doors (it is absolute bullshit that they waited for someone with keys - classroom doors are just regular hollow-core doors and you can kick them in if you have to) and then you have someone behind the perp as well as in front of them.  Nothing is served by waiting while people die and the perp has more time to prepare for a police response.

If I was ordered to go in immediately, I'd go in.  If I was ordered not to go in, I'd go in.

I am wondering why anyone was even waiting for orders one way or the other. Especially once they realize there are TWO doors into those rooms. At that point, the tactical situation seems very straightforward, and the cops have the advantage. Worst case is that one or two get shot (and they have body armor), but there is no reasonable outcome where they don't neutralize the shooter in the process.

Of course, I was not there, so who fucking really knows what I would have done.

There is, of course, that, as well as the fact that there may be more facts here that we don't know about.  But it sure has horrific optics to me.

Trying to play devils advocate, the only thing I can think of is that maybe they don't know there is only one shooter?

Even then, I still think you just crash both doors at the same time.

[Sheilbh]

I'm not arguing that there is a pretty clearly fucked up result here that is 100% a failure that must be looked at.

I agree - I don't think the focus should be on cowardice or lack of bravery. However, I fully accept that is an entirely understandable response and thing for the families and that community to think, especially given that they were also being policed. And I imagine there's not a person alive who wouldn't run into that situation if it was their loved ones. I think their anger, however they're feeling it is justified.

So I get that but agree it's not for randos on the internent.

And in generally I think failures are normally less to do with individuals and their own virtues or flaws, and normally more to do with the structure and institution they're working in. That's where I think the failure was - there may be individual wrong calls, but I suspect it's more institutional and probably requires reform and a bit of a clean sweep.

[FunkMonk]

I am fairly sure the residents of Uvalde, TX will never look at their law enforcement the same again.

[Berkut]

I am fairly sure the residents of Uvalde, TX will never look at their law enforcement the same again.

Hopefully law enforcement in Uvalde will never look at themselves the same again.

[grumbler]

And in generally I think failures are normally less to do with individuals and their own virtues or flaws, and normally more to do with the structure and institution they're working in. That's where I think the failure was - there may be individual wrong calls, but I suspect it's more institutional and probably requires reform and a bit of a clean sweep.

There is the old saying that "collectively, we are dumber than any of us are individually" and that plays in here a bit, but there's also "I couldn't live with myself if I stood by and let that happen," and I don't understand how the former overwhelmed the latter in this case.

Maybe it was just the stress of the situation not allowing the police in the building to think clearly and their leadership failing to give them proper direction.  I know what I hope I would do but also acknowledge Berkut's caution that, until you've actually seen the elephant, saying what you'd do when you see it is just talk.

[The Larch]

A guy from the NYT has been reviewing the training received by the Uvalde PD, and it turns out that they did receive training on how to respond to active shooters, with at least two training days specifically devoted to that in the last couple of years, the last one only two months ago.

These training days included RPing such a scenario in the school itself. In the training received two months ago the guidelines specifically stressed that the main priority of such a scenario is confronting the attacker, even if it's by a single officer, that such a scenario requires immediate response to minimize casualties. The materials specifically included the following sentence: "A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field."

Apparently all this training amounted to fuck all at the end of the day.

[Berkut]

I would say it didn't amount to fuck all at all.

They did go in. Several of them followed the shooter into the school, and they did neutralize him and did save several lives in the process.

[The Larch]

I would say it didn't amount to fuck all at all.

They did go in. Several of them followed the shooter into the school, and they did neutralize him and did save several lives in the process.

I would say that you don't need that much training to do the bare minimum expected of your job.

[Berkut]

I would say it didn't amount to fuck all at all.

They did go in. Several of them followed the shooter into the school, and they did neutralize him and did save several lives in the process.

I would say that you don't need that much training to do the bare minimum expected of your job.

I think you need quite a lot of training to do the bare minimum of many jobs, including the job of "React to heavily armed person shooting up a school".

[Threviel]

Armed female bystander kills man firing at party in West Virginia https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61615236

Apparently some soccer mommy gave the republicans wank material for decades to come.

[Admiral Yi]

Noteworthy that race hasn't entered into the Texas shooting discussion.

[Josquius]

Armed female bystander kills man firing at party in West Virginia https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61615236

Apparently some soccer mommy gave the republicans wank material for decades to come.

Yeah, heard about this, seems to be getting splashed about all over in response to the school shooting

[Razgovory]

I'm having a hard time with this one.  They keep showing photos of these kids.  Little girl who looks dressed up for first communion, pictures like that.  It's just too much.  Can't watch it.  I really wish there was something I could do to prevent these things from happening.

[Zoupa]

I'm having a hard time with this one.  They keep showing photos of these kids.  Little girl who looks dressed up for first communion, pictures like that.  It's just too much.  Can't watch it.  I really wish there was something I could do to prevent these things from happening.

You can vote and organize for the Democratic party. That's about it.

[11B4V]

https://mobile.twitter.com/FrankFigliuzzi1/status/1530752937638739969