Poland Was Partly to Blame for World War II, says Russia

[Valmy]

Louis XV man. Throwing away the Prussian alliance to side with Austria. Il était bête comme la paix

[DGuller]

The real question is: why is Russia pushing this idea now as part of their foreign policy?

Because Russian propaganda is in overdrive.  The narrative is that Russia is the good guy, and the West has always been the bad guy.  Making Poland the bad guy in WWII has two goals:  absolving Stalin of any guilt, since Stalin is now back to being a good guy who may have been tough occasionally, and insulting Poland directly, since today it is solidly in the Western camp.

[The Brain]

can i switch camp

[Eddie Teach]

can i switch camp

You have to join one first.

[The Brain]

can i switch camp

You have to join one first.

Sweet.

[garbon]

But Prussia was an innocent victim fighting for its life, right.  It's not like they were allied with the United Kingdom in a war of agression against France to take over their colonies worldwide.  Prussia occupying French troops on the continent while Great Britain was free to move theirs oversea.

No, really, all it was various European States trying to deny the right of existance of Prussia.  It never was about the money Great Britain gave to Prussia or the territorial ambitions of said country.  Nope.  Prussia was a victim.

Now, who is doing revisionism?

When you fight against France, you fight for what is right.

[Ideologue]

And then when the west did resist evil he had the Comintern help Hitler and undermined the West because...it gave the Soviets more time to fight Hitler in some inscrutable way. It is all in the great noble Stalinist plan.

By that point the USSR was already committed to an alliance of convenience with the Nazis--especially given how much effort they saw France and Britain put in to saving Poland.  You'll recall that this effort amounted to "nearly nothing."

The Polish government had its reasons (and they weren't even necessarily bad ones), but they really were serious obstacles to the creation of an anti-Nazi entente.  So were large elements within the British establishment.

The bigger question is "who gives a shit today?"  The answer should be "nobody, this is a meaningless liberal arts topic of interest only to hobbyists."  Unfortunately, this is not the state of the world and in Europe 70 year old history questions apparently matter.

[Valmy]

By that point the USSR was already committed to an alliance of convenience with the Nazis--especially given how much effort they saw France and Britain put in to saving Poland.  You'll recall that this effort amounted to "nearly nothing."

Committing yourself to a war that put your country in existential danger is considerably more than nothing. The alliance with Germany was a fucking week old I can see why they were so hopelessly enter-twined with it and unable to help from attempting to undermine resistance to Germany at every front.

The bigger question is "who gives a shit today?"  The answer should be "nobody, this is a meaningless liberal arts topic of interest only to hobbyists."  Unfortunately, this is not the state of the world and in Europe 70 year old history questions apparently matter.

True but I am such a hobbyist

And yes it is absurd events that happened hundreds of years ago move the needle in international politics, much less ones that remain in living memory. But, you know, what are you going to do. Next thing you know people will debate why the ACW happened.

[Ideologue]

Well, the alliance with Britain and France was dead, partly thanks to Poland's unwillingness to allow the transit of Soviet troops through its territory under any circumstances short of what actually occurred, which was the only way the USSR could have conceived of a partnership with Poland being useful.  (Why would I get involved in a war to protect a buffer state if the buffer state has already been swallowed whole and its strategic usefulness has been eradicated?)  My intention isn't to totally absolve the USSR of opportunistically preying upon their neighbors, which they certainly did, to varying levels of competence.

It didn't help that the Soviets were in a terrible shape, militarily, and knew it, and so would have preferred avoiding war with a great power anyway.  It also didn't help that large segments of the British establishment hated the USSR as much or more than the Nazis, and many would have welcomed the chance to watch the two illiberal powers destroy each other.  (This is, after all, how WWI ultimately shook out.)

[Ideologue]

And yes it is absurd events that happened hundreds of years ago move the needle in international politics, much less ones that remain in living memory. But, you know, what are you going to do. Next thing you know people will debate why the ACW happened.

Today, we are all Balkantards.

[Martinus]

Well, the alliance with Britain and France was dead, partly thanks to Poland's unwillingness to allow the transit of Soviet troops through its territory under any circumstances short of what actually occurred, which was the only way the USSR could have conceived of a partnership with Poland being useful.  (Why would I get involved in a war to protect a buffer state if the buffer state has already been swallowed whole and its strategic usefulness has been eradicated?)  My intention isn't to totally absolve the USSR of opportunistically preying upon their neighbors, which they certainly did, to varying levels of competence.

It didn't help that the Soviets were in a terrible shape, militarily, and knew it, and so would have preferred avoiding war with a great power anyway.  It also didn't help that large segments of the British establishment hated the USSR as much or more than the Nazis, and many would have welcomed the chance to watch the two illiberal powers destroy each other.  (This is, after all, how WWI ultimately shook out.)

That's a bit like arguing that a woman is to blame for being raped, because she didn't want to have consensual sex with the attacker in the first place.

[viper37]

Louis XV man. Throwing away the Prussian alliance to side with Austria. Il était bête comme la paix

yes, he was.

[Ideologue]

Well, the alliance with Britain and France was dead, partly thanks to Poland's unwillingness to allow the transit of Soviet troops through its territory under any circumstances short of what actually occurred, which was the only way the USSR could have conceived of a partnership with Poland being useful.  (Why would I get involved in a war to protect a buffer state if the buffer state has already been swallowed whole and its strategic usefulness has been eradicated?)  My intention isn't to totally absolve the USSR of opportunistically preying upon their neighbors, which they certainly did, to varying levels of competence.

It didn't help that the Soviets were in a terrible shape, militarily, and knew it, and so would have preferred avoiding war with a great power anyway.  It also didn't help that large segments of the British establishment hated the USSR as much or more than the Nazis, and many would have welcomed the chance to watch the two illiberal powers destroy each other.  (This is, after all, how WWI ultimately shook out.)

That's a bit like arguing that a woman is to blame for being raped, because she didn't want to have consensual sex with the attacker in the first place.

Geopolitics isn't sexual morality.  Ordinarily.

[dps]

The Polish government had its reasons (and they weren't even necessarily bad ones), but they really were serious obstacles to the creation of an anti-Nazi entente.  So were large elements within the British establishment.

Yeah, the Poles were as afraid of the Soviets, if not moreso, as they were of the Germans (and with good reason).

[Martinus]

The Polish government had its reasons (and they weren't even necessarily bad ones), but they really were serious obstacles to the creation of an anti-Nazi entente.  So were large elements within the British establishment.

Yeah, the Poles were as afraid of the Soviets, if not moreso, as they were of the Germans (and with good reason).

Well, for starters, Poland was at war with the Soviets in 1920.