Piketty: Germany Has Never Paid Its Debts

[Norgy]

Greece stands as proof of the unsustainability of the views and dreams f the European left, and this is why they really want to spin this story around

No, it doesn't. It stands as a very good example of why former Ottoman/Byzantine possessions can't have nice things.
The lack of trust between the classes, between state and the governed and Greece's relatively recent discovery of modern democracy are parts of an inheritance that no banker ever would know about.

Clientilism is alive and well several places in Europe. Both the PASOK and New Democracy pandered to their bases when elected.

I think most European leftists want something like Scandinavian social democracy. While the model has small flaws, I doubt you'll find better run governments or better societies than Sweden, Denmark and Norway.

[derspiess]

f the European left

Agree.

[The Minsky Moment]

If Greece treasures its sovereignty so much, it should avoid putting itself in a position where it depends on the generosity of others for its survival.  Hong Kong amasses a large cash reserve and keeps our budgets balanced because we don't want to depend on London or Beijing under any circumstances.

It is indeed fortunate for HK that it is safe from interference from Beijing.

[Syt]

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/frances-hollande-eurozone-should-have-its-own-budget-parliament-20150714-00436

France's Hollande: Eurozone Should Have Its Own Budget, Parliament

PARIS--French President Francois Hollande said Tuesday he will make proposals for a eurozone government, after Greece came close to exiting the currency bloc in tense negotiations between European heads of state at the weekend.

In a television interview on France's Bastille Day holiday, Mr. Hollande said he will make a joint proposal with Germany to improve how the eurozone is governed.

"There must be an economic government for the eurozone," Mr. Hollande said.

The next step would be to create a budget for the eurozone and, ultimately, a parliament, he added.

[Martinus]

That would suck - Europe of Two Speeds.

[Syt]

That would suck - Europe of Two Speeds.

You had that the moment the Euro was introduced in part of the EU.

[Monoriu]

You still haven't have seemed to grasp that Hong Kong is in a rather different situation then Greece.  Let's use one very simple example:  How many miles of roads do you think Hong Kong needs to maintain?  How many miles of roads do you think Greece has to maintain?

Of course Greece is larger than HK, but it isn't that large when compared with the others.  I do not believe that road maintanence is what bankrupted Greece.  If it is, the EU deal will, well, deal with it.  No, it isn't the size of the country.  It is the people.  The people and the government chose to have good welfare, more welfare than it could sustain.  It consciously chose short term gratification rather than putting money aside for the rainy day.  And when the rainy day comes, it expects unconditional help from its neighbours.  When the help came with strings attached, it called people names. 

I am saying there is another way.  If you don't want help, don't spend more money than you can afford.  In fact you should put money aside.  It is possible.  We don't have a public pension system, and we have loads of cash on hand.  They made their choice.  Can't have it both ways. 

[Monoriu]

If Greece treasures its sovereignty so much, it should avoid putting itself in a position where it depends on the generosity of others for its survival.  Hong Kong amasses a large cash reserve and keeps our budgets balanced because we don't want to depend on London or Beijing under any circumstances.

It is indeed fortunate for HK that it is safe from interference from Beijing.

I know what you are saying.  Can you imagine what it would be like if we needed Beijing to bail us out in 08/09? 

[Tamas]

That would suck - Europe of Two Speeds.

You had that the moment the Euro was introduced in part of the EU.

Yes. Lets create a proper super-state from the willing euro members, and have the rest be tagging along as free trade partners, and stop this mid-way nonesense.

[Razgovory]

You still haven't have seemed to grasp that Hong Kong is in a rather different situation then Greece.  Let's use one very simple example:  How many miles of roads do you think Hong Kong needs to maintain?  How many miles of roads do you think Greece has to maintain?

Of course Greece is larger than HK, but it isn't that large when compared with the others.  I do not believe that road maintanence is what bankrupted Greece.  If it is, the EU deal will, well, deal with it.  No, it isn't the size of the country.  It is the people.  The people and the government chose to have good welfare, more welfare than it could sustain.  It consciously chose short term gratification rather than putting money aside for the rainy day.  And when the rainy day comes, it expects unconditional help from its neighbours.  When the help came with strings attached, it called people names. 

I am saying there is another way.  If you don't want help, don't spend more money than you can afford.  In fact you should put money aside.  It is possible.  We don't have a public pension system, and we have loads of cash on hand.  They made their choice.  Can't have it both ways.

Hong Kong doesn't need to pay nearly as much infrastructure as even a fairly small country.  Urban areas tend to produce large amounts revenue while rural ares do not.  Not only that but the infrastructure of a rural area tends to cost more.  Comparing an entropot city state to a nation is absurd.

[Monoriu]

Hong Kong doesn't need to pay nearly as much infrastructure as even a fairly small country.  Urban areas tend to produce large amounts revenue while rural ares do not.  Not only that but the infrastructure of a rural area tends to cost more.  Comparing an entropot city state to a nation is absurd.

We are in the process of building one of the most expensive railways in the world, on a per mile basis.  According to your logic there is no need to make any cross-jurisdiction comparisons as everybody is different.  You just don't want to admit that it is possible to pile up money and deny welfare to the population. 

[Berkut]

There are plenty of countries of the size and budget of Greece that have managed to not spend themselves into bankruptcy. Hong Kong might not be a good comparison, but the point Mono is making is perfectly valid.

This is just another iteration of "too big too fail" where bad decisions that fuck everyone are made in the full knowledge that they will have terrible outcomes in the long run - but fuck it, let the people who will be in power then deal with it, we don't care.

[Norgy]

That would suck - Europe of Two Speeds.

You had that the moment the Euro was introduced in part of the EU.

Which is why the EU won't become a real federation. If the ACW was fought over states' rights, we have about two millennia of states' rights warfare behind us in Europe.
For being Eurasia's limp dick, Europe is fairly complex and heterogenous still.

[Razgovory]

Hong Kong doesn't need to pay nearly as much infrastructure as even a fairly small country.  Urban areas tend to produce large amounts revenue while rural ares do not.  Not only that but the infrastructure of a rural area tends to cost more.  Comparing an entropot city state to a nation is absurd.

We are in the process of building one of the most expensive railways in the world, on a per mile basis.  According to your logic there is no need to make any cross-jurisdiction comparisons as everybody is different.  You just don't want to admit that it is possible to pile up money and deny welfare to the population.

I would question comparing a city to a nation.  It's absurd.  Infrastructure, services, bureaucracy cost a great deal more when you expand them to rural ares.  I'm a bit surprised that you of all people consider paying government employees a form of "welfare".

[crazy canuck]

There are plenty of countries of the size and budget of Greece that have managed to not spend themselves into bankruptcy. Hong Kong might not be a good comparison, but the point Mono is making is perfectly valid.

This is just another iteration of "too big too fail" where bad decisions that fuck everyone are made in the full knowledge that they will have terrible outcomes in the long run - but fuck it, let the people who will be in power then deal with it, we don't care.

I cant think of any other Euro countries that have suffered such a significant drop in GDP over such a short period of time.  Is there a good comparator?