The Off Topic Topic

[Neil]

Thank you.  That means I'm not way off on my measurements (well, I am, but the other way ).  This means I am justified in ridiculing The Wolverine for its artistic license over a tragedy that gave air war a bad name.

The atomic bombings might have been the least immoral form of city bombing in WWII.

Only Nagasaki, I mean.  Not Hiroshima.

They didn't surrender.

Giving them at least five business days would have been the least we could do.

Fuck that.  When you're facing the prospet of having your cities incinerated by atomic weapons while the US Navy slowly starves your population to death, the Japanese had the obligation to use expedited mail.

[Admiral Yi]

Well okay, but you've shifted the goalposts a bit here.

I don't think so.  To say that Ho was inspired by Jefferson and the US Constitution just to fight a war of independence is an abuse of the word inspired.  Ho certainly would have had the concept of a war of national independence had the US not existed.  His desire for Vietnamese indpendence would not have been less had the US not existed.  Saying he was inspired by the language of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution really only serves two purposes: to win over US support against the French, and to paint Ho and the NV regime in the most favorable light possible.

[Sheilbh]

To say that Ho was inspired by Jefferson and the US Constitution just to fight a war of independence is an abuse of the word inspired.  Ho certainly would have had the concept of a war of national independence had the US not existed.  His desire for Vietnamese indpendence would not have been less had the US not existed.

No-one's arguing that though. And I think your version of inspire is closer to emulate. To me inspire means for someone's success, or failure, or ideas to animate your own action and your own version. Which is why I think Jefferson specifically is so strong an inspiration. You want to emulate the US principles you should be reading Madison and Hamilton, you want to be inspired by them then you read Jefferson. He expressed them best.

The successful example of the American war of independence is an inspirational example for people fighting wars of independence. The American constitution has also been an inspiration for national founders and liberal democrats through history. That doesn't mean that without the American example those concepts wouldn't have existed - someone else would've come up with them, but that American success is simply an inspiration.

It's like say, Gandhian non-violent resistance. The idea probably would've arrived in some other way at some other point, but Gandhi best put it into words and practice and so he's an inspiration for numerous protest movements since - regardless of their perspective on returning to the villages. The same goes for lots of ideas about terrorism and insurgency.

Saying he was inspired by the language of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution really only serves two purposes: to win over US support against the French, and to paint Ho and the NV regime in the most favorable light possible.

But he could've genuinely been inspired by them AND trying to win over US support. Especially in 1919 at the Paris Peace Conference.

[Razgovory]

Kind of reminds me about Regean's Bitburg visit.  Just as Reagan wasn't a secret closet SS man, I don't think it's reasonable to come away from Obama's statement that Obama is a closet communist.

[Admiral Yi]

Shelf: I don't see the distinction you're trying to make.  In particular what is the significance of "animate?" Ho wanted independence, but after reading Jefferson he really, really wanted it?

Gandhi is a terrible analogy because he was an innovator.  Surely you're not arguing that the US innovated the concept of national independence.

[garbon]

So Tim's a communist now.  Anyone else want to declare their party membership?

The internet gives me the ability to quote Hitler and King George III as well. Does that make me a Communist-Nazi-Monarchist? 

No.  You've been sliding leftward for a while now.

Funny how being forced to go to another country to get work does that.

[Sheilbh]

It's the difference between a film based on real events and the film inspired by real events. The latter's taking liberties and the real events are just the starting point for a more creative version. Ho wanted independence (and supported war if necessary, unlike some of his comrades). The US was/is the most successful example of a war of independence. Jefferson put it in the most ringing, seductive, inspirational way. The US and Jefferson in particular would be inspirational to someone like Ho.

In addition they were petitioning the first Paris Peace Conference since the one at which the USA achieved independence, and it was a period when all the world was excited by the American President's talk of 'self-determination'.

To use all the language of 'role models' and things like that if a girl is inspired by Hilary Clinton it doesn't mean she's going to try and find a local politician to hook up with. It means she'll use the example of Hilary's success to spur her on in or animate her own life. She may not even want to be a politician, but Clinton can be an inspiration.

Gandhi is a terrible analogy because he was an innovator.  Surely you're not arguing that the US innovated the concept of national independence.

Actually I think an argument could be made, I mean the American war of independence is really before European nationalism and Latin American independence movements. Off the top of my head the only earlier example I can think of is the Dutch.

Edit: Forgot the Scots, but until Braveheart no one was inspired by that.

[garbon]

To use all the language of 'role models' and things like that if a girl is inspired by Hilary Clinton it doesn't mean she's going to try and find a local politician to hook up with. It means she'll use the example of Hilary's success to spur her on in or animate her own life. She may not even want to be a politician, but Clinton can be an inspiration.

What a ridiculous example as Yi isn't saying that inspire means you'll be exactly the same in every way.  I do think though it'd be strange for someone to cite Hillary Clinton as an inspiration if they hated her politics.

Oh and learn how to spell her name.

[Sheilbh]

What a ridiculous example as Yi isn't saying that inspire means you'll be exactly the same in every way.  I do think though it'd be strange for someone to cite Hillary Clinton as an inspiration if they hated her politics.

But that is what Yi's saying. For Ho to be inspired by Jefferson he needs to be kit and kaboodle into American liberal democracy, otherwise it's a misuse of the word. I disagree. As I say I think Jefferson's probably been an inspiration of every leader of an independence movement from San Martin to Senghor regardless of ideology, and chances are he's been quoted by most.

It'd be strange now, but give it fifty years. By then I can imagine America's first black Republican President citing Obama as an inspiration or a successful Republican woman citing Clinton. I think Ed Miliband's statement on Maggie came pretty close, I imagine many of his generation (and Cameron's) were inspired to get into politics by Maggie on both sides of the argument.

[Admiral Yi]

The US was/is the most successful example of a war of independence. Jefferson put it in the most ringing, seductive, inspirational way. The US and Jefferson in particular would be inspirational to someone like Ho.

I already addressed this interpretation of inspired.  I don't see how you can claim that if the US had not existed Ho would have desired independence any less or been less zealous about achieving it.

[Sheilbh]

I think you've been dealing with your own alternate meanings of inspiration, not the one I'm saying.

Inspiration isn't making you desire or believe in something, nor is it providing a model, or an influence. It's animating your own belief - spurring it on - using the example of someone else or some issue to keep you going.

I mean even the word sounds like it means a breathing in. It's like drawing support and resolution for yourself, your beliefs and your conduct from someone else. That other person could be someone who's got similar perspectives, or they've been in a similar position, or they've dealt with something far worse - but you're using that to motivate yourself.

Edit: With your version of inspiration what does it mean for someone to be artistically inspired by something (or 'real events' or their muse or whatever)?

[garbon]

What a ridiculous example as Yi isn't saying that inspire means you'll be exactly the same in every way.  I do think though it'd be strange for someone to cite Hillary Clinton as an inspiration if they hated her politics.

But that is what Yi's saying. For Ho to be inspired by Jefferson he needs to be kit and kaboodle into American liberal democracy, otherwise it's a misuse of the word. I disagree. As I say I think Jefferson's probably been an inspiration of every leader of an independence movement from San Martin to Senghor regardless of ideology, and chances are he's been quoted by most.

No, pretty sure he's suggesting that in order to say that Ho was inspired, Ho would have had to do something similar to what America did beyond simply create an independence movement. Doesn't need to be an exact replica.

If we use your Hillary Clinton example, Yi isn't objecting to the term inspire because Ho didn't invade Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Sheilbh]

Well okay. To use my Hillary example, how would you describe it if the little girl inspired by Clinton's example wasn't even that into politics and never considered going into it?

[garbon]

Well okay. To use my Hillary example, how would you describe it if the little girl inspired by Clinton's example wasn't even that into politics and never considered going into it?

Depends what was she so inspired about?

Also, I think the inspiration bit is hard to tease out. I mean let's say we have a killer who claims he was inspired by listening to a song.  Did the music really inspire his thoughts to kill or is that just a fig leaf as he had the desire to kill all along? Or was it that he was 90% on the way to murder and the song get him that last 10%? Probably hard to know.

I don't know though that it would be a good idea for you or I to say that the killer was inspired by the song as that suddenly conflates his act with that piece of music. Or in other words what happens when we have a school shooting and the media goes on about the killer liking violent video games.

I think it is problematic to say that Ho was inspired by Jefferson because in saying that, it suggests some sort of connection to what America did and what Ho did. Now of course it depends on one's point of view on America, but it would generally seem to suggest some sort of rehabilitation of Ho. After all, he liked Jefferson so he couldn't be such a bad guy.

[Neil]

Yeah, I'm sure that it's unthinkable that Thomas Jefferson could have inspired a guy who lead a country that was big on talking about equality, rights and freedom, but where people were held as slaves and where whole groups who defied the central government were put into camps or liquidated.