The Off Topic Topic

[Eddie Teach]

Peter, the Race are a desert species so they plan on landing tens of millions of colonists in the interior of Australia, so that's one of their main goals. Overwhelming force was used. And I'm sure the US called all those troops back to fight in the US.

It'd take a mighty big logistical effort to pull all those troops back across the Pacific. Be easier to use them where they were.

And yeah, Australia was a major target for the lizards, but it seems unlikely they'd utterly destroy US/Anzac forces while not making a dent in Japanese. Indonesia is a lot closer to Australia than New Zealand is.

[Agelastus]

..the fall of the Aztec Empire had never happened?

Already done. I think there are some Meso-Americans in teh future novels. I'd have to look them up.

At least twice I can think of off the top of my head. The one I haven't read is the new one where the Mexica and the Chinese are fighting over Mars, having divided the Earth between them. The other was a book I read about twenty years ago where Cortez had changed sides and the Aztecs ended up completing a world conquest towards the end of the twentieth century (finishing it during the book.) At the end of the book the main character had been exiled by a vengeful Aztec prince to an alternate reality, presumably our own, where she sat and wrote a book of her experiences in a cottage in Wales while she cared for her insane sister and waited for the Aztecs to invade across the portals...

I read it from the library though, so for the life of me I cannot remember the title.

[Agelastus]

New Zealand is conquered, it's independence never made any sense.

Sure it does.  It's a seperate island group from Australia.

I agree. Given its terrain and size the Race would have ignored it. If you have it conquered, you almost by default have to strip Japan of their own remaining island Empire in South East Asia, as you are ignoring what the book itself says about the Race underestimating potential of and thus ignoring islands and the sea in general.

[jimmy olsen]

Peter, the Race are a desert species so they plan on landing tens of millions of colonists in the interior of Australia, so that's one of their main goals. Overwhelming force was used. And I'm sure the US called all those troops back to fight in the US.

It'd take a mighty big logistical effort to pull all those troops back across the Pacific. Be easier to use them where they were.

And yeah, Australia was a major target for the lizards, but it seems unlikely they'd utterly destroy US/Anzac forces while not making a dent in Japanese. Indonesia is a lot closer to Australia than New Zealand is.

The Race almost totally ignores boats, it will be easier to bring them home than home than it was to get there.

[jimmy olsen]

New Zealand is conquered, it's independence never made any sense.

Sure it does.  It's a seperate island group from Australia.

I agree. Given its terrain and size the Race would have ignored it. If you have it conquered, you almost by default have to strip Japan of their own remaining island Empire in South East Asia, as you are ignoring what the book itself says about the Race underestimating potential of and thus ignoring islands and the sea in general.

The US didn't have that many troops in South East Asia in May 42, not nearly as many as Japan.

[Agelastus]

New Zealand is conquered, it's independence never made any sense.

Sure it does.  It's a seperate island group from Australia.

I agree. Given its terrain and size the Race would have ignored it. If you have it conquered, you almost by default have to strip Japan of their own remaining island Empire in South East Asia, as you are ignoring what the book itself says about the Race underestimating potential of and thus ignoring islands and the sea in general.

The US didn't have that many troops in South East Asia in May 42, not nearly as many as Japan.

You misunderstand. What I am saying has nothing to do with the USA.

If the Race considered New Zealand important enough to conquer (presumably because of its proximity to Australia, prime colonisation territory) then you have to make the assumption that they considered the islands of S E Asia important enough to conquer because of their proximity to Australia. And do not forget that Japan was NOT a nuclear power when the truce was negotiated. That was the main reason that Atvar did not concede the return of any of the conquered territory of the British Empire to Britain, whereas all occupied areas of the USA, USSR and Germany were evacuated (apart, very illogically as you point out, from Poland.) So if the region had been conquered, it would not have been returned.

Which incidentally makes your return of Korea to Japan nonsensical; I am 99% certain the region was overrun in the books, and even if that was not explicitly stated the Japanese had no Maginot Line equivalent with which to stop the Race in Korea.

If you're "more logical" Worldwar map gives New Zealand to the Race, then you have to strip Japan of a chunk of its territory by the same logic - but in doing so you are ignoring everything that the book says about how the Race see islands and the Sea in general.

New Zealand should be independent in the WorldWar world, and presumably part of your English speaking Federation. I would not be the least bit surprised if New Zealand's population had not been swelled by Australian refugees as well.

[jimmy olsen]

New Zealand is conquered, it's independence never made any sense.

Sure it does.  It's a seperate island group from Australia.

I agree. Given its terrain and size the Race would have ignored it. If you have it conquered, you almost by default have to strip Japan of their own remaining island Empire in South East Asia, as you are ignoring what the book itself says about the Race underestimating potential of and thus ignoring islands and the sea in general.

The US didn't have that many troops in South East Asia in May 42, not nearly as many as Japan.

You misunderstand. What I am saying has nothing to do with the USA.

If the Race considered New Zealand important enough to conquer (presumably because of its proximity to Australia, prime colonisation territory) then you have to make the assumption that they considered the islands of S E Asia important enough to conquer because of their proximity to Australia. And do not forget that Japan was NOT a nuclear power when the truce was negotiated. That was the main reason that Atvar did not concede the return of any of the conquered territory of the British Empire to Britain, whereas all occupied areas of the USA, USSR and Germany were evacuated (apart, very illogically as you point out, from Poland.) So if the region had been conquered, it would not have been returned.

Which incidentally makes your return of Korea to Japan nonsensical; I am 99% certain the region was overrun in the books, and even if that was not explicitly stated the Japanese had no Maginot Line equivalent with which to stop the Race in Korea.

If you're "more logical" Worldwar map gives New Zealand to the Race, then you have to strip Japan of a chunk of its territory by the same logic - but in doing so you are ignoring everything that the book says about how the Race see islands and the Sea in general.

New Zealand should be independent in the WorldWar world, and presumably part of your English speaking Federation. I would not be the least bit surprised if New Zealand's population had not been swelled by Australian refugees as well.

The Race was having a very tough time pushing the Japanese back in the mountains of Manchuria.

As for New Zealand, I don't think the Race attacked it until after the Treaty of Cairo was signed and the war with the big five was over. Unfortunately for them they're not in any of the five's sphere of influence. I don't they bothered occupying Madagascar or Ceylon until later on either.

[Neil]

I meant in the books Neil.

So?

Peter, the Race are a desert species so they plan on landing tens of millions of colonists in the interior of Australia, so that's one of their main goals. Overwhelming force was used. And I'm sure the US called all those troops back to fight in the US.

Unrealistic.

Which part?

The part with the war-like race of space aliens.  They can't exist.  And even if they did, how could they not subjugate the entire Earth in a matter of days?  A military with the kind of edge in tech needed for interstellar spaceflight could run the table on 1940s Earth in a matter of days, or less.

Unrealistic.

[Agelastus]

The Race was having a very tough time pushing the Japanese back in the mountains of Manchuria.

But they were pushing the Japanese back. None of the Japanese POV characters that I can recall when the fighting was mentioned held out much hope of holding the Race back.

As for New Zealand, I don't think the Race attacked it until after the Treaty of Cairo was signed and the war with the big five was over. Unfortunately for them they're not in any of the five's sphere of influence. I don't they bothered occupying Madagascar or Ceylon until later on either.

They are a part of the British Empire and Commonwealth, aren't they? And Eden specifically conceded any British claims to already occupied territories at the Cairo conference, if I recall correctly. At this point Britain is co-operating with both Germany and the USA on nuclear matters, so I doubt the bomb can be far away, at which point the Race has to treat Britain on the same level as it treats the USA, USSR and Germany. And anyway, the Race appears to have conceded Japanese control of S E Asia in canon (something you are not changing) despite the fact that Japan did not become a nuclear power until the 1960s.

New Zealand falls under the same heading as Canada; either it is occupied before the peace, which makes a nonsense of several references in the text to Race psychology and the Japanese retention of S E Asia, or it remains a free nation after the peace.

Occupying New Zealand before or after the peace treaty is insupportable from canon, and unless you wish to make more extensive changes to the world map, unsupportable in your alternate Worldwar either.

[Eddie Teach]

The part with the war-like race of space aliens.  They can't exist.  And even if they did, how could they not subjugate the entire Earth in a matter of days?  A military with the kind of edge in tech needed for interstellar spaceflight could run the table on 1940s Earth in a matter of days, or less.

Unrealistic.

The premise seems to be that the aliens, while more technologically advanced, are not as intelligent as humans. Also, they weren't expecting Earth to be as advanced as it was, so didn't dedicate enough resources. It's not totally implausible. From our own history we have Vinland and Roanoke to counterbalance Cortes and Pizzarro's missions.

[Neil]

The premise seems to be that the aliens, while more technologically advanced, are not as intelligent as humans. Also, they weren't expecting Earth to be as advanced as it was, so didn't dedicate enough resources. It's not totally implausible. From our own history we have Vinland and Roanoke to counterbalance Cortes and Pizzarro's missions.

A species that isn't intelligent enough to understand the potential energy of gravity isn't intelligent enough to fly into space without accidentally clubbing themselves to death with their own horrible alien genitals.  We're talking pre-industrial science here.

Early forays into North America were unsuccesful due to small, low-tech parties facing unexpected challenges.  The limited range of their weapons made it difficult to project power and defend themselves.  Because the aliens have weapons with unlimited range, it is trivially easy for them to destroy any force or combination of forces that tries to stop them.

[jimmy olsen]

The Race was having a very tough time pushing the Japanese back in the mountains of Manchuria.

But they were pushing the Japanese back. None of the Japanese POV characters that I can recall when the fighting was mentioned held out much hope of holding the Race back.

As for New Zealand, I don't think the Race attacked it until after the Treaty of Cairo was signed and the war with the big five was over. Unfortunately for them they're not in any of the five's sphere of influence. I don't they bothered occupying Madagascar or Ceylon until later on either.

They are a part of the British Empire and Commonwealth, aren't they? And Eden specifically conceded any British claims to already occupied territories at the Cairo conference, if I recall correctly. At this point Britain is co-operating with both Germany and the USA on nuclear matters, so I doubt the bomb can be far away, at which point the Race has to treat Britain on the same level as it treats the USA, USSR and Germany. And anyway, the Race appears to have conceded Japanese control of S E Asia in canon (something you are not changing) despite the fact that Japan did not become a nuclear power until the 1960s.

New Zealand falls under the same heading as Canada; either it is occupied before the peace, which makes a nonsense of several references in the text to Race psychology and the Japanese retention of S E Asia, or it remains a free nation after the peace.

Occupying New Zealand before or after the peace treaty is insupportable from canon, and unless you wish to make more extensive changes to the world map, unsupportable in your alternate Worldwar either.

I think the Japanese could station and supply a lot more troops on their islands than the New Zealanders could on theirs. Once Auckland and the major cities are taken how are the ANZACs gonna get supplied with ammo and weapons? Moreover the jungles of Indonesian would especially foreboding terrain for the lizards. However, in the end I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Eddie Teach]

Early forays into North America were unsuccesful due to small, low-tech parties facing unexpected challenges.  The limited range of their weapons made it difficult to project power and defend themselves.  Because the aliens have weapons with unlimited range, it is trivially easy for them to destroy any force or combination of forces that tries to stop them.

Well, we could assume that the invasion force sent was "small" considering the scope of their mission, and the higher than expected technological level of the earthlings, as well as our ability to utilize captured lizard technology as unexpected challenges. And compared to the Indians those expeditions weren't low-tech. They had less ability to project force than Turtledove's aliens but their opponents had less ability to counter it than modern nation-states.

Overall, I mostly agree with you. I find the premise a little "human chauvinistic," but who really wants to read about their species getting enslaved by space aliens?

[Neil]

Well, we could assume that the invasion force sent was "small" considering the scope of their mission, and the higher than expected technological level of the earthlings, as well as our ability to utilize captured lizard technology as unexpected challenges. And compared to the Indians those expeditions weren't low-tech. They had less ability to project force than Turtledove's aliens but their opponents had less ability to counter it than modern nation-states.

40s nation-states would be as helpless before a space-bourne attacker as a human baby would be before a velociraptor.  No matter how stupid those aliens are, just the fact that they're space-bourne indicates they have the knowledge and ability to defeat everyone on Earth, with ease.

[Razgovory]

Jesus Christ.  I just found out my idiot sister is pregnant.  She's 20 years old and dating the stupidest man alive.