The Off Topic Topic

[Sheilbh]

If I was trying to build a majority for turning the UK into a republic I would certainly bring the horrible lives that the Royals endure into the argument.

Yeah - I think it's probably great if you're a minor royal. If you're Zara Philips level or Princess Michael of Kent you just get the good stuff and, once every 10 years, the press take an interest.

If you're in the core line of succession then it's not a life I would ever want. On a personal level I just would not want the restrictions - I think you're still banned from marrying a Catholic, say, and while I think they're a bit more relaxed than they were 40 years ago I still think your future spouse gets vetted and approved regardless of your feelings. Plus the intrusion from the press who will also be offering your friends money to spill the beans.

And if that happens to combine with tabloid racism then I agree with them I think it would be unbearable. I also think that if there's ever a gay member of the royal family that they're going to go through hell.

But as I say it's a decade after the tabloids got caught deleting voicemails from a murdered girl's account which gave her parents false hope that she was still listening to her inbox. If we didn't take action after that I think chances are we never will. It's a couple of years after a woman committed suicide after being hounded by the press so it's not like we can expect them to change if they actually kill someone because, to my mind, they have. And they just did a 180 to a press campaign blaming prosecutors for "hounding" her.

[HVC]

You think he'd have learned from his mother and not married someone wholly unprepared for the life.

[Grey Fox]

He learned from his father and married someone he loves.

[Maladict]

We're talking about Danny Baker, right? The man made a terrible mistake but from what I've seen of him over the years I really don't think he is a racist. Nor was the image intended as such, even though it will look racist to most people who saw it. All of that can be true, contradictory as it may seem. 

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your argument, I just don't think this particular example serves it well.

While I think there is merit in discussing the punishments meted out, I don't think that appeals to intent counter Shola's concern that Britain is a society where journalists generate racist content. From the point of view of the propogration of racism, it doesn't really matter if the individual intends to be racist or 'is racist', they are still propogating racism.  Think about all the ink spilled on whether or not Trump is a racist. I'd argue his intent doesn't really matter as at the end of the day he was still propogating racist ideas.

If we do want to look at intent, I could see a space where he didn't intend to be racist but knew it could be received that way. The notion he had no idea that it could be perceived as racist doesn't seem credible and that's the stance he took when he first 'apologised' ("Sorry my gag pic of the little fella in the posh outfit has whipped some up. Never occurred to me because, well, mind not diseased."). Here's a bit on a blurb from BBC at the end of coverage on his apology (where he also noted he was quite rightly being punished).

He claims he was well aware of the racist trope, it just didn't cross his mind when choosing it. I don't see how that would be beyond credible, sometimes people just don't think it through.
He's used chimps in suits to mock royals before, maybe that would go some way in explaining it. An honest mistake still seems plausible to me.

"I chose the wrong photo to illustrate a joke. Disastrously so.

"In attempting to lampoon privilege and the news cycle I went to a file of goofy pictures and saw the chimp dressed as a Lord and thought, 'That's the one!'

"Had I kept searching I might have chosen General Tom Thumb or even a baby in a crown. But I didn't. God knows I wish had."

The statement added: "Minutes later I was alerted by followers that this royal baby was of course mixed race and waves of panic and revulsion washed over me.

"F**k, what had I done? I needed no lessons on the centuries slurs equating simians and people of colour. Racism at it's basest.

I'm still unsure how I feel about the punishment. I feel this article sums up my stance better than I could.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/12/as-danny-baker-found-we-live-in-an-age-of-damnation-not-forgiveness

Do these consequences include being sacked? In most cases, no. It's becoming increasingly common for employers to sack employees for comments made not in the workplace, or as part of their job, but as private citizens. From academic Steven Salaita, whose appointment was blocked by the University of Illinois for tweets about Gaza deemed antisemitic; to Angela Williamson, an employee of Cricket Australia, sacked for tweeting about the Tasmanian government's abortion facilities; to economist Maya Forstater, dismissed from the thinktank Centre for Global Development for tweeting about trans women that "men cannot turn into women" – employers are increasingly policing the views of workers.

It's a trend that should worry us. Employees should be judged by their ability to do their job, not their political views. To accept that employees should be sacked for their political views is a dangerous path.

Baker's case is more complicated. For someone who is a public face of an organisation, as a presenter is, the image they project is, to a degree, part of their job. "Protecting the organisation's image" has become one of the excuses for sacking employees for their views expressed as private citizens. That trend should be resisted. Nevertheless, it's not unreasonable in certain cases for an organisation such as the BBC to consider the image of a presenter.

Baker's case is different, too, because he was not sacked for his views but for an error of judgment. My view is that a tweet, racist but not designed to be so, which was deleted, and for which he apologised (albeit half-heartedly and disingenuously to begin with) should not be a sacking offence.

All of us make mistakes, even egregious ones. Those who recognise their mistakes, and try to correct them, should be treated with a degree of generosity.

[Sheilbh]

But didn't he apologize for those? A quick search says that he did. What would it advance if he apologizes for them once again, now some 11-16 years later?

Sorry - only just saw this. From memory, and I could be wrong, the palace apologised for the nazi outfit and made that story go away. I don't think he ever did, because royals don't really speak. I don't think anyone commented on the recording of him in the army.

But from the piece I posted in GQ about that word - it was noted by one of the people discussing it:

"What is hilarious is that nobody has ever looked me in the eye and said that word, but I've definitely had people want to fight me because I'm brown," he says. I ask how he would respond if someone did call him it. "It's not going to make me feel a particular type of way, honestly. I'm not gonna feel angry or sad. But I would need to say or do something in that moment to make them learn not to say that word again," he replies frankly. Of course, he notes, people are less likely to learn when we have people in positions of power who use racialised language loosely. "Remember back in the day when Prince Harry called another soldier his 'little P*ki friend'? It's just like... you're the prince, bruv, if you're saying it, none of us have got a chance out here! If you're saying it, we're f**ked!"

I ask Premz how the slur fits into rapping, if at all. "I don't believe in the whole reclaiming the word, to be honest with you. I know a lot of people do, though. There are a lot of Asian rappers right now, especially younger ones, who use it in pride and camaraderie. But my advice to them is always that instead you can say 'akhi'" – an Arabic word for "brother" used widely across modern Multicultural London English (MLE) – "It sounds the same and it basically means the same. It's just more positive."

I feel like you do need to address saying stuff like that - and it's entirely fine to apologise, and say that you've learned from that mistake, you've improved and you would never do that again. But I'm not entirely comfortable with just skating past it.

Edit: Unrelated but the interview was on UK TV last night and I saw that the Daily Mail has 25 pages of coverage

Edit: Also I love this Irish Times piece: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/harry-and-meghan-the-union-of-two-great-houses-the-windsors-and-the-celebrities-is-complete-1.4504502

[ulmont]

Edit: Also I love this Irish Times piece: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/harry-and-meghan-the-union-of-two-great-houses-the-windsors-and-the-celebrities-is-complete-1.4504502

That one is excellent - just saw it a few minutes ago.

Having a monarchy next door is a little like having a neighbour who's really into clowns and has daubed their house with clown murals, displays clown dolls in each window and has an insatiable desire to hear about and discuss clown-related news stories. More specifically, for the Irish, it's like having a neighbour who's really into clowns and, also, your grandfather was murdered by a clown.

[Razgovory]

Remember when I posted about John McAffee driving like crazy around Barcelona and losing his nuts after he got trapped in Spain during the first lockdown? Well, the guy bought himself a hotel in Tarragona that had gone bankrupt, turned it into a cryptocurrency mining facility, and is now in jail awaiting extradition after the Feds charged him with numerous securities and tax frauds.

Can't deny the guy's resourceful.

I knew he hid out out in Dalvík in North Iceland in 2019 that is until his social media addiction resulted in a twitter user pinpointing his location. He apparently had a reputation as a lovable eccentric in the village. His saga was seamlessly integrated into the local folklore.

Did he ever eat his own dick on national television?  I seem to recall him promising to do that.

[Josquius]

For the legal folks of languish in particular... An interesting one. Domestic abuse case in the age of covid. After 8 mins or so it gets....yeah....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Mfk7Dg42k&t=1s

[Sheilbh]

Buckingham Palace have released a statement - again it's just grim. Only "learning the full extent" now because it's on the news - not because they are, apparently, "much loved family members"


Edit: On the other hand just seen someone on Twitter complain that it's a real missed opportunity for the royal family to have and lead a real conversation on race and mental health - and I'm just confused about whether people know what the royal family is

[Maladict]

Buckingham Palace have released a statement - again it's just grim. Only "learning the full extent" now because it's on the news - not because they are, apparently, "much loved family members"


Edit: On the other hand just seen someone on Twitter complain that it's a real missed opportunity for the royal family to have and lead a real conversation on race and mental health - and I'm just confused about whether people know what the royal family is

It's 1997 all over again.

[Sheilbh]

I think there's a Peter Morgan drama starring Helen Mirren in the last 2 days crafting that statement. Especially the "while some recollections may vary" line

Edit: Also after Piers Morgan's behaviour over the last two days ITV have received over 40,000 complaints and "following discussions with ITV" he has apparently decided "now is the time to leave Good Morning Britain"

This thread of clips from GMB this morning gives a sense of the mood/Morgan lately: https://twitter.com/chrisrickett/status/1369177870191460353?s=20

[grumbler]

For the legal folks of languish in particular... An interesting one. Domestic abuse case in the age of covid. After 8 mins or so it gets....yeah....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Mfk7Dg42k&t=1s

Thanks for the share.  That was interesting, to be sure.  Deborah Davis played the game perfectly.

[Tamas]

I think there's a Peter Morgan drama starring Helen Mirren in the last 2 days crafting that statement. Especially the "while some recollections may vary" line

Edit: Also after Piers Morgan's behaviour over the last two days ITV have received over 40,000 complaints and "following discussions with ITV" he has apparently decided "now is the time to leave Good Morning Britain"

This thread of clips from GMB this morning gives a sense of the mood/Morgan lately: https://twitter.com/chrisrickett/status/1369177870191460353?s=20

Yeah I mean watching Morgan fly off his handle (mostly as an act I'd have thought) was my morning trash entertainment but over the last couple of days I just couldn't stomach it. Good riddance.

[Tamas]

Also liked this comment:

Yesterday Piers couldn't believe that someone may feel suicidal after 4 years of constant vitriolic abuse from all angles. Today he has to sit through 30 seconds of someone (rightly) pointing the finger at him and he losses the plot.

EDIT: also:

[The Larch]

It seems that Piers Morgan has been canned.