The Off Topic Topic

[Zanza]

The pictures show that the gamepad was wireless though. 

[viper37]

many middle class people can cough up $250,000 for a unique once-in-a-lifetime experience connected to something they have a passionate interest in.

We must not have the same definition of middle class.
250 000$ is not even half the average price of a house in Canada.  Middle class people would rather save than pay such insane amount for some sight seeing.

I don't follow.

Average price of house in Canada is 756 000$

Middle class in Canada is between 45 000$ and 120 000$.

You can't save for a house, pay the house and then spend 250k$ on a once in a lifetime trip that when you are middle class.

[viper37]

I never got the popularity of the Titanic in general.

It happened close to Newfoundland.  Nothing ever happens in Newfoundland.

Ok, well, it's a big tragedy, an unsinkable ship that sinks on its maiden voyage and the majority of the crew&passengers dies with it.  I understand the fascination.

Just because it came up a couple of times - I don't believe Titanic was ever advertised as being "unsinkable" at the time.

But everything else stands.

Why did people belive Titanic was unsinkable

There are some sources that indicate it was thought to be as such.

The White Star Line may or may not have advertised it as such, but certainly did not discourage people of thinking it.

[Threviel]

I actually have no idea as to what a bunch of super-rich folks were doing down there, do please enlighten me.

If you'd been actually following the story, you would know that the two amateur crew members had received considerable training and had duties to perform during the dive.  The only ones who hadn't dived on the Titanic before were the Pakistani businessman and his son.

Play pretend is play pretend is play pretend is play pretend. So they pay to pretend to be useful? What of it?

It's not that I gloat that they are in trouble, it is no doubt a horrible tragedy so far, it's just that I consider rich tourists putting themselves and others in needless danger just for a rush to be useless idiots.

[The Brain]

many middle class people can cough up $250,000 for a unique once-in-a-lifetime experience connected to something they have a passionate interest in.

We must not have the same definition of middle class.
250 000$ is not even half the average price of a house in Canada.  Middle class people would rather save than pay such insane amount for some sight seeing.

I don't follow.

Average price of house in Canada is 756 000$

Middle class in Canada is between 45 000$ and 120 000$.

You can't save for a house, pay the house and then spend 250k$ on a once in a lifetime trip that when you are middle class.

As you yourself hint at there are many middle class people who have a net worth of more than $250,000. A person who is passionate about something can prioritize that interest over being a homeowner.

[viper37]

many middle class people can cough up $250,000 for a unique once-in-a-lifetime experience connected to something they have a passionate interest in.

We must not have the same definition of middle class.
250 000$ is not even half the average price of a house in Canada.  Middle class people would rather save than pay such insane amount for some sight seeing.

I don't follow.

Average price of house in Canada is 756 000$

Middle class in Canada is between 45 000$ and 120 000$.

You can't save for a house, pay the house and then spend 250k$ on a once in a lifetime trip that when you are middle class.

As you yourself hint at there are many middle class people who have a net worth of more than $250,000. A person who is passionate about something can prioritize that interest over being a homeowner.

But then, they'd fuck up their retirement plan...

Look, doctors can make from 200k$ to 400k$, depending on the specialty.  They're just outside the middle class range, but for them, 250k$ on a life long dream, that might be possible, if they are two in the same salary range and they make sacrifices.  I'll grant you that.

[viper37]

It figures.  I had a feeling it was something like this, but didn't know much.

The maker of the lost Titan submersible previously complained about strict passenger-vessel regulations, saying the industry was 'obscenely safe'

It's sad for the passengers though.

Describing the industry in a 2019 interview, Rush said that there had been no injuries in the field for decades, adding: "It's obscenely safe because they have all these regulations. But it also hasn't innovated or grown — because they have all these regulations."

[...]

A 1993 regulation put strict controls on safety standards and who could pilot a submersible.
Rush called these developments "understandable but illogical," saying he felt the law was well meaning but lamenting the stifling effect it put on commercial innovation.
His remarks on safety came as part of a wider set of regrets about how little the US government prioritized ocean research.
A 2019 blog post on OceanGate's website cites speed of innovation as one of the reasons the Titan isn't classed according to standard regulatory processes. It said that while the company met standards "where they apply," the slow processes of vessel classification were "anathema to innovation."

[DGuller]

Having been on the other side of regulation often in my career, I'm not going to automatically dismiss any such complaints, even if the credibility of the speaker is currently in question.  You can be pro-regulation in general but anti certain regulation, because many regulations are either counter-productive or at least hugely inefficient. 

In fact, if you're pro-regulation, bad regulations are bad for your cause.  It's definitely possible for the industry, or anything for that matter, to be too safe, if safety comes at a price of something else.

[Josquius]

I've seen a lot of takes about this sub using a video game controller to control its movements.

But really - video game controllers are quite reliable and easily replaceable, so for all the sub's sins that doesn't seem like one of them.

Potentially so.

Oddly they seem to be using a cheap logitech model rather than something known to be good and reliable though.

[Threviel]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehamilton/2023/06/20/oceangate-was-reportedly-warned-titanic-sub-didnt-meet-industry-standards-5-years-ago-posing-catastrophic-threat/?sh=4d678ac69ff3

What a clusterfuck... Bunch of know-it-alls design an innovative new sub that fails to live upp to industry standards and claims "innovation often falls outside of the existing industry paradigm.". Tourists having to sign waivers "The submersible was considered "experimental"—a term made clear to expedition participants who had to sign a waiver acknowledging a risk of death and serious injury."

The sheer fact of having the sub controlled by, what to me seems like, a bluetooth wireless gaming controller. 

[Threviel]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OceanGate,_Inc.

OceanGate began developing a composite carbon fiber and titanium-hulled submersible in collaboration with the University of Washington's (UW) Applied Physics Lab (APL) in 2013,[13] tentatively named Cyclops 2; the first titanium structural components were ordered in December 2016 from Titanium Fabrication Corp. (TiFab),[15] and OceanGate signed a contract with Spencer Composites in January 2017 for the carbon-composite cylinder. Spencer previously had built the composite pressure hull for the single-person DeepFlight Challenger for Steve Fossett to a design by Graham Hawkes.[16] After Fossett died, DeepFlight Challenger was acquired by Richard Branson's Virgin Oceanic, which had announced plans to conduct a series of five dives to the deepest points of the oceans; DeepFlight refused to endorse the plan, as the craft had been designed to dive only once. Adam Wright, the president of DeepFlight, stated in 2014 "The problem is the strength of the [DeepFlight Challenger] does decrease after each dive. It is strongest on the first dive."[17] Spencer Composites was given challenging performance specifications for Cyclops 2, which was meant to withstand 6,600 psi (46 MPa; 450 atm) working service pressure with a factor of safety of 2.25× for its intended maximum depth of 4,000 m (13,000 ft).[16] By October 2019, Cyclops 2 had been renamed to Titan and OceanGate stated that they had begun development of the successor Cyclops 3 and 4 submersibles.[18]

Calculations showed the cylinder that forms the center section of the crew compartment should have a wall thickness of 4.5 in (114 mm), which OceanGate rounded up to 5.0 in (127 mm); it consists of 480 alternating layers of pre-preg unidirectional cloth, laid in the axial direction, and wet-wound filament, laid in the hoop direction. The cylinder was built in 2017 and cured at 137 °C (279 °F) for 7 days.[16] The entire pressure vessel consists of two titanium hemispheres, two matching titanium interface rings, and the 142 cm (56 in) internal diameter, 2.4-meter-long (7.9 ft) carbon fiber wound cylinder – the largest such device ever built for use in a crewed submersible.[19] One of the titanium hemispherical end caps is fitted with a 380 mm-diameter (15 in) acrylic window.[16] In addition to the crew compartment, Titan includes a landing skid structure and outer glass fiber composite shell, both bolted to the titanium interface rings.[16] Overall, the Titan is 670 cm × 280 cm × 250 cm (22.0 ft × 9.2 ft × 8.2 ft) and weighs 9,525 kg (20,999 lb) with a maximum payload of 685 kg (1,510 lb). It moves at up to 3 kn (5.6 km/h; 3.5 mph) using four electric thrusters, arrayed two horizontal and two vertical. The vessel carries sufficient oxygen to sustain a full complement of five people for 96 hours.[20]

Once the occupants are aboard, the hatch is closed and bolted from the outside; there is no way to open the hatch from inside the vessel. In addition, there is no on-board navigation system; the support ship, which monitors the position of Titan relative to its target, sends text messages to Titan providing distances and directions.[21] Journalist David Pogue, who rode in Titan to view the Titanic in 2022, noted that Titan was not equipped with an emergency locator beacon; during his expedition, the surface support vessel lost track of the Titan "for about five hours, and adding such a beacon was discussed. They could still send short texts to the sub, but did not know where it was. It was quiet and very tense, and they shut off the ship's internet to keep us from tweeting."[22]

A 1⁄3-scale model of the pressure vessel was built and tested at APL-UW; the model was able to sustain a pressure of 4,285 psi (29.54 MPa; 291.6 atm), corresponding to a depth of approximately 3,000 m (9,800 ft).[23] OceanGate stated that unmanned testing of Titan to 4,000 m (13,000 ft) was performed in 2018 to validate the design,[24] followed by a statement that a crew of four had set a record by descending in Titan to 3,760 m (12,340 ft) in April 2019.[25]

David Lochridge, the OceanGate Director of Marine Operations, inspected the Titan as it was being handed over from Engineering to Operations and filed a quality control report in January 2018 in which he stated that no non-destructive testing of the carbon fiber hull had taken place to check for voids and delaminating which could compromise the hull's strength. Instead, Lochridge was told that OceanGate would rely on the real-time acoustic monitoring system, which he felt would not warn the crew of potential failure with sufficient time to safely abort the mission and evacuate. The day after he filed his report, he was summoned to a meeting in which he was told the acrylic window was only rated to 1,300 m (4,300 ft) depth because OceanGate would not fund the design of a window rated to 4,000 m (13,000 ft). In that meeting, he reiterated his concerns and added he would refuse to allow crewed testing without a hull scan; Lochridge was dismissed from his position as a result.[26] OceanGate filed a lawsuit against Lochridge that June, accusing him of improperly sharing proprietary trade secrets and fraudulently manufacturing a reason to dismiss him. The suit was settled in November 2018.[26] In January 2020, the hull of Titan began showing signs of cyclic fatigue and the craft was de-rated to 3,000 m (9,800 ft).[27] The Spencer-built composite cylindrical hull either was repaired or replaced by Electroimpact and Janicki Industries in 2020 or 2021, prior to the first trips to Titanic.[26]

OceanGate's Titan is the vessel used in the survey expeditions of the RMS Titanic wreckage site. The first Titanic expedition aboard Titan took place in 2021.[28]

As an, albeit electrical, engineer my analysis of this company, based on this and previous post, is that it is a shit-show. Turning off internet to hide issues is a gigantic red warning flag. Luckily it seems that the leader of it is one of the unhappy souls on the vessel and I hope that he still is alive to ponder what he could have done differently.

[Josquius]

Related, anyone played Iron Lung?
I've no intent on doing so but got into it for a day or two a few weeks back via a random youtube suggestion.

[Legbiter]

What a clusterfuck... Bunch of know-it-alls design an innovative new sub that fails to live upp to industry standards and claims "innovation often falls outside of the existing industry paradigm.". Tourists having to sign waivers "The submersible was considered "experimental"—a term made clear to expedition participants who had to sign a waiver acknowledging a risk of death and serious injury."

The sheer fact of having the sub controlled by, what to me seems like, a bluetooth wireless gaming controller. 

The 250k version of an unscrupulous local tour operator ignoring hellish weather forecasts and heading out onto a glacier in uninsured vehicles.   

[Josephus]

many middle class people can cough up $250,000 for a unique once-in-a-lifetime experience connected to something they have a passionate interest in.

Yeah, there's a reason why those on this submersible are NOT middle class

[Legbiter]

Luckily it seems that the leader of it is one of the unhappy souls on the vessel and I hope that he still is alive to ponder what he could have done differently.

At least he went down with the ship so to speak. Designing and operating a safer craft would have been a lot more expensive and would have pushed the price tag out of the well-off range, severely limiting their potential client base.