The Off Topic Topic

[Admiral Yi]

It's an SNL reference, in case any Yuros were wondering.

[Valmy]

So he is currently still dead, correct?

I think I need an update to see if there has been a change in his condition

[Sheilbh]

Also as clarification, the case is only about taking Franco's remains away to a different cemetery, not about tearing down the "Valley of the Fallen", which is actually a protected heritage site..

What's the view on that site?

[The Larch]

Also as clarification, the case is only about taking Franco's remains away to a different cemetery, not about tearing down the "Valley of the Fallen", which is actually a protected heritage site..

What's the view on that site?

Of the Valley itself? It's an extremely thinly disguised glorification of Francoism, despite whatever objectives of representing and honouring all the civil war dead. Franco's (and also José Antonio Primo de Rivera's) presence there voids any theoretical shred of neutrality. Removing them (I'm not really sure if Primo de Rivera is also included in the decision) allows for a long overdue reconversion of the site into a true memorial, although the taint will be incredibly difficult to remove. Another problematic issue is the Benedictine abbey located there, which could be argued that deserves removing as well, or at least a proper reworking of their mission, as at the moment they're basically another francoist relic there which also tries to block any change.

Besides that, it's impressive, gloomy and fucking creepy.

[Savonarola]

Three college-aged men were ahead of me at the scan in at the gym this morning; only one scanned in and the rest just walked in.  As I was scanning in the receptionist (who probably isn't yet thirty) started complaining about these entitled young people who think they can go wherever they want.  Middle age has come rather early to the Millennial generation.

[Valmy]

Three college-aged men were ahead of me at the scan in at the gym this morning; only one scanned in and the rest just walked in.  As I was scanning in the receptionist (who probably isn't yet thirty) started complaining about these entitled young people who think they can go wherever they want.  Middle age has come rather early to the Millennial generation.

You go right from childhood to middle aged with barely a stop off at young adulthood

[Duque de Bragança]

Bah. I very much prefer to see him reburied in the Sagrada Familia. It would be a riot. Probably literally.

Franco below ground is always better than above ground so I see no point in moving him. Unless, it's a diversion for political reasons, such as taking the attention away from real problems which cannot be solved as quickly as by moving the bones of a bloody dictator.

[Sheilbh]

Also as clarification, the case is only about taking Franco's remains away to a different cemetery, not about tearing down the "Valley of the Fallen", which is actually a protected heritage site..

What's the view on that site?

Of the Valley itself? It's an extremely thinly disguised glorification of Francoism, despite whatever objectives of representing and honouring all the civil war dead. Franco's (and also José Antonio Primo de Rivera's) presence there voids any theoretical shred of neutrality. Removing them (I'm not really sure if Primo de Rivera is also included in the decision) allows for a long overdue reconversion of the site into a true memorial, although the taint will be incredibly difficult to remove. Another problematic issue is the Benedictine abbey located there, which could be argued that deserves removing as well, or at least a proper reworking of their mission, as at the moment they're basically another francoist relic there which also tries to block any change.

Besides that, it's impressive, gloomy and fucking creepy.

Is there any movement to change it or maybe the site to acknowledge that stuff?

I always find it interesting how countries deal with the sort-of physical legacy of their history. Whether it's like this, or Soviet stuff in Russia, or external like Lutyens New Delhi.

[The Larch]

Also as clarification, the case is only about taking Franco's remains away to a different cemetery, not about tearing down the "Valley of the Fallen", which is actually a protected heritage site..

What's the view on that site?

Of the Valley itself? It's an extremely thinly disguised glorification of Francoism, despite whatever objectives of representing and honouring all the civil war dead. Franco's (and also José Antonio Primo de Rivera's) presence there voids any theoretical shred of neutrality. Removing them (I'm not really sure if Primo de Rivera is also included in the decision) allows for a long overdue reconversion of the site into a true memorial, although the taint will be incredibly difficult to remove. Another problematic issue is the Benedictine abbey located there, which could be argued that deserves removing as well, or at least a proper reworking of their mission, as at the moment they're basically another francoist relic there which also tries to block any change.

Besides that, it's impressive, gloomy and fucking creepy.

Is there any movement to change it or maybe the site to acknowledge that stuff?

I always find it interesting how countries deal with the sort-of physical legacy of their history. Whether it's like this, or Soviet stuff in Russia, or external like Lutyens New Delhi.

Back in 2011 a group of experts was created by the Zapatero government as part of the historical memory law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valle_de_los_Ca%C3%ADdos#Expert_Commission_for_the_Future_of_the_Valley_of_the_Fallen), which was tasked with delineating the future of the Valley. Removing Franco's remains is IIRC actually one of their recomendations, in order to "depolitize" the monument and turning it into an effective memory site.

[Syt]

[Grey Fox]

I understand what this "Short row a chin, unravel a mouth, and double decrease a nose." means.



Also, fuck you Oxford comma.

[Sheilbh]

The best obituary I read on Jacques Chirac is paywalled, so I'll just

Also, as one person on Twitter put it, responsible for a political poster that should inspire all parties:



Edit: And I had no idea of his contribution of great campaign songs:
https://www.politico.eu/article/former-french-president-jacques-chirac-slice-of-soul-and-other-memorable-campaign-songs/

That first one is great

[Tamas]

I think nowadays a politician would do better with a poster of him screaming red-faced with a silly hairdo.

[Admiral Yi]

Well shit.  RIP Jaques.  The only Frenchman's pronounciation I could ever understand.

[Sheilbh]

Tony Blair's former aide Alastair Campbell sharing some Chirac anecdotes. My favourite was Chirac getting up to make a grandiloquent statement to end a NATO summit shouting match: 'La France propose ... un café.'