Another Russian Rewrite of History

[Lettow77]

That map is much more agreeable; it retains greater hungary in part.

[Valmy]

That map is much more agreeable; it retains greater hungary in part.

Just by giving them Slovakia and Ruthenia.  That would not really have made the Hungarians or the Slovaks or Ruthenians happy.

Not that people ever really are happy in the part of the world.

[Eddie Teach]

Wow. I am crushed.

You know, it's rather ungracious of you really. I tell you you're a great troll(possibly the best on Languish, though Jaron is more entertaining to the spectators) and you reply by telling me I'm a weak troll. I should probably be offended. 

[Razgovory]

Wow. I am crushed.

You know, it's rather ungracious of you really. I tell you you're a great troll(possibly the best on Languish, though Jaron is more entertaining to the spectators) and you reply by telling me I'm a weak troll. I should probably be offended. 

Grumbler has achieved a zen like state in trolling.  He can out troll anyone with out knowning he does it.

[grumbler]

Grumbler has achieved a zen like state in trolling.  He can out troll anyone with out knowning he does it.

See, PW, this is how you do a backhanded compliment! 

[Martinus]

Apparently, now Russian public TV has broadcaster a "historical documentary" according to which Poland had a pre-war deal with Hitler to invade the Soviets. 

[Alatriste]

Actually, he could speak for the Allies because he conducted negotiations with the British and French before he returned his reply to von Baden (and, in fact, gave in to the French demand for German payment of damages, which is why those provisions were in the armistice note).  It is true that there were no "Allies."  The correspondence all reads "The Allied Powers and the United States."

And to Great Britain regarding 'freedom of the seas' IIRC...

Again, I think that this is going too far.  Had the German Army known what the Allied Powers had in mind for a peace settlement, I daresay they would have fought on to final defeat.

They could have kept the fight for one or two months, but the situation was a bit like February or March 1945, collapse was unavoidable... and there was that little red revolution thing too.

A good question in my opinion is... what shocked them so much? The fourteen points already included the loss of Alsace-Lorraine, an independent Poland with a "free and secure" access to the sea, all French territory to be freed and "the invaded portions restored" (i.e. war reparations), etc.

This doesn't mean Versailles was 100% fair or clever, because portions like the "War Guilt Clause" were plainly stupid and counterproductive, the disarmament of Germany (and the other central powers, a point often forgotten) implied an eternal state of 'no war, no peace', reparations were excessive and badly conceived, etc, etc... but imperial Germany had bet so much in the last months that she stood to lose much.

In any case, German democratic politicians could be rightly shocked, but the men that had run the war, no. They should have known what kind of peace they were likely going to get, knowing what kind of peace they themselves had been planning, and had already imposed on Russia and Rumania. 

Agree with the second point, but not so sure about the first.  The Allied Powers were not interested in negotiations by the time the German Spring Offensive had been beaten.

I was very ambiguous there, my bad. I was thinking of January, when Wilson exposed his fourteen points, or February, not of August or September. After the Spring Offensive the die was cast.

I think it not unreasonable for the Germans to believe that they would end up in a kind of Congress of Vienna situation.  It was, of course, the bitterness when that didn't happen that led to the Second Great Unpleasantness.

In my opinion (not that you are alone in this, far from it, I know I'm in the minority here) you assign too much importance to Versailles itself and too little to French policy 1919-1933. The endless disputes about the reparations, the occupation of the Ruhr, the utter lack of flexibility regarding military clauses... in other words, I think Versailles wasn't so bad a concept; it could have worked if applied fairly and modified gradually as time passed. Perhaps if America had joined the League, or Britain given more especific guarantees to France and kept a stronger army... but all that is history-fiction.

[Valmy]

Apparently, now Russian public TV has broadcaster a "historical documentary" according to which Poland had a pre-war deal with Hitler to invade the Soviets. 

The poor Russians, always victims of ruthless Polish aggression.