How Marine Le Pen is winning France’s gay vote

[Martinus]

Parts of it, sure. Course the other aspect is my unwavering GOP support.

Do you think gays and Jews voting for Front Nationale do so out of "unwavering support"?

[garbon]

You tell me. I will say that FN seems much more closely linked to hate than the rather wide Republican party.  But then that's probably doable when you are a much smaller party.

To be honest, I think gay and Jews voting for Front Nationale are being rather lazy. If I was fearful of attacks in my daily living, I wouldn't spend my efforts on voting for FN and calling it a day...I think I'd rather try to develop some cogent thoughts and arrange rallies in an effort to get political support. Well assuming I didn't just move away from those unsafe locales.

[derspiess]

So it's their (gays 'n Jews) fault and not the fault of the non-FN parties for either ignoring the problem or actively working to make the problem worse?

[garbon]

I don't think I said anything about whose "fault" it is for gays being attacked on the streets.

[Valmy]

The impact of all these immigrants from similar cultures does seem to justify the US' quota system in immigration. I always thought that was a perverse policy but I guess it was put in place to combat the sorts of problems they have in Europe. At least the ones not caused by having political entities created to serve ethnic groups.

[Razgovory]

Yeah and I don't buy it. If one is concerned about immigration there aren't only two options of do nothing and support a party founded on hate.

In Sweden 7 parties in parliament support the current open door policy to flood the country with Muslims and not encourage assimilation. 1 party in parliament does not (SD). SD is what you would call a party founded on hate. Other parties that a concerned voter has to choose between include the hopelessly marginal Nazi parties.

That is the stated goal on the party platform?  Open door policy to flood country with Muslims?  Are there also 7 parties in Sweden supporting enslavement of the world by Judo-Bolshevik forces and one that is not?

I was curious who you were talking about.  I'm assuming that the SD is the Swedish Democrats.  Interesting bunch, they sought connections with the David Duke's people (KKK), and seems to be born of fascist and racist groups.  I'd say they were founded on hate.

[Martinus]

Using American solutions to European problems is not really a great idea as circumstances are different.

Firstly, Europe borders a lot of areas with potential asylum seekers often coming from cultures much different than European. In the US the only comparable issue is the Mexican borders - and Mexicans are much more similar to Americans than Arabs are to Europeans - which doesnt prevent America from being heavily divided about Mexican immigration in any case. The colonial legacy creates similar problems that the US does not have.

Secondly, Europe is much more socialist/welfare oriented and for such policies to work you need to have a greater cohesiveness of a society - something difficult to achieve in a very diverse society as there appears a free rider problem.

Thirdly, European national identity is much more ethnicity-centric than the US one.

Only the third issue can be somewhat mitigated through policy change.

[Valmy]

Using American solutions to European problems is not really a great idea as circumstances are different.

Firstly, Europe borders a lot of areas with potential asylum seekers often coming from cultures much different than European. In the US the only comparable issue is the Mexican borders - and Mexicans are much more similar to Americans than Arabs are to Europeans - which doesnt prevent America from being heavily divided about Mexican immigration in any case. The colonial legacy creates similar problems that the US does not have.

Not sure what your point is here. Having loads of immigrants from one similar culture group causes problems and your rebuttal is 'look how that thing you said was a problem is a problem in America'. Granted the Mexicans are not a big deal at all, we are practically brothers. But any kind of mass immigration like this is going to create problems. Not sure how the colonial legacy is that different. We have one, certainly enough to create issues between us and Latin America (among other places).

Secondly, Europe is much more socialist/welfare oriented and for such policies to work you need to have a greater cohesiveness of a society - something difficult to achieve in a very diverse society as there appears a free rider problem.

More? Sure. "Much more"? No. We have pretty extensive welfare and social programs and this is a huge reason why people get upset over the illegal immigrants (in addition to homegrown 'free riders'). These problems are ones we have been wrestling with for decades.

Thirdly, European national identity is much more ethnicity-centric than the US one.

Only the third issue can be somewhat mitigated through policy change.

Yes, that is what I said. But I was just talking about one thing: the quota system and why maybe it was not such a bad idea as much as I hate it. I was not saying maybe every Euro government should introduce it.

[Razgovory]

Using American solutions to European problems is not really a great idea as circumstances are different.

Firstly, Europe borders a lot of areas with potential asylum seekers often coming from cultures much different than European. In the US the only comparable issue is the Mexican borders - and Mexicans are much more similar to Americans than Arabs are to Europeans - which doesnt prevent America from being heavily divided about Mexican immigration in any case. The colonial legacy creates similar problems that the US does not have.

Secondly, Europe is much more socialist/welfare oriented and for such policies to work you need to have a greater cohesiveness of a society - something difficult to achieve in a very diverse society as there appears a free rider problem.

Thirdly, European national identity is much more ethnicity-centric than the US one.

Only the third issue can be somewhat mitigated through policy change.

Uh, we get lots of asylum seekers that are different in culture from us and just plain immigrants from all over the world.  The second argument doesn't really make any sense.  I think the "problem" you are alluding to, is that white Europeans are more likely to resent non-white Europeans getting welfare then other white Europeans getting the same service.  We have the same problem here.  The third one is a serious problem, and is probably on the mark.

[Valmy]

Nonsense. The Brits, if anything, hate the white Europeans more. I think you are projecting New World Racism on the Old World. It doesn't work, they are far more ethnically conscious than we are.

[Razgovory]

Nonsense. The Brits, if anything, hate the white Europeans more. I think you are projecting New World Racism on the Old World. It doesn't work, they are far more ethnically conscious than we are.

You honestly think they the Brits hate Polish immigrants more then Pakistani ones?

[derspiess]

I don't think I said anything about whose "fault" it is for gays being attacked on the streets.

That's not what I was talking about.  You're accusing them of being lazy for just supporting FN and not holding rallies & whatnot (is that actually the case, btw?).  Whereas IMO the big issue (blame, if you will) is with the mainstream parties that don't address their concerns.

[Valmy]

You honestly think they the Brits hate Polish immigrants more then Pakistani ones?

The EU and its immigrants are the thing spawning the right wing parties, not the Pakistani ones.

[garbon]

I don't think I said anything about whose "fault" it is for gays being attacked on the streets.

That's not what I was talking about.  You're accusing them of being lazy for just supporting FN and not holding rallies & whatnot (is that actually the case, btw?).  Whereas IMO the big issue (blame, if you will) is with the mainstream parties that don't address their concerns.

I would think the blame would land firmly on the hands of the perpetrators, no? And then I guess maybe the governments in power that don't make it loud and clear that such behavior will not be tolerated.

[derspiess]

We're not even close to talking about the same thing.  Never mind.