How far right are you?

[Ed Anger]

Ed is so far right, he's popping into the left.

I'm complicated.

[dps]

US early late 18th century to mid 19th century.  Britain in the same time period.  Czarist Russia.  Qing China.

EDIT: And all the people who promoted the liberal economics of the 18th and 19th century were still "statists".  They believed that people should live in states.

Can US politics of that time period be described in left/right terms?  Honest question.

Does left/right politics have any meaning in an absolute monarchy like Russia?  Less honest question.

A statist is not a person that believes people should live in states.

First question: Yes.  In a sense they were all leftist as they were Whigs and anti-monarchists (the original left) Federalists were more right and the Jeffersonians were more left.  The Jacksonian Democrats became the new right and Whigs and later Republicans were then new left.

I agree with most of what you say here, but I can't really see the Jacksonians as rightists.  Jackson himself scared the conservatives of his day to death.  I would say that by the mid-1840s, the Democratic party had become pretty conservative, but the Whigs weren't necessary the liberals--they were composed of anyone who had disagreed with Jackson, whether they were to the left or right of him (which is one of the reasons the Whigs didn't win but a couple of elections and didn't last all that long).   

2nd Question: yes.  The Czarist regime was explicitly conservative.  Most absolute monarchies were.  They had a strong hand in the economy and were often mercantilist.

Agree.

A statist is a usually a pejorative term used by lunatics against non lunatics.  Since I am a lunatic it doesn't work exactly.

Not sure about that.  I know for sure that Ide has described himself as a statist.

[grumbler]

A statist is a usually a pejorative term used by lunatics against non lunatics.  Since I am a lunatic it doesn't work exactly.

Not sure about that.  I know for sure that Ide has described himself as a statist.

He didn't say that only lunatics used the term, he just said that when lunatics used it they used it as a pejorative.  He'd know.

[Tonitrus]

I don't limit myself to any arbitrary two-dimensional concept, such as  "left" or "right". 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

But the question wasn't about how far right extremist you are.

And I sincerely doubt that Beeb or any other poster who responded 10 see themselves as Hitler.

I always took Burke as the ur-Conservative.

Let's remember Hitler styled himself as a National Socialist.  While I concede that doesn't make him a leftist, it doesn't mean he was an arch-Conservative either.

No, he wasn't a conservative but he was definitely a rightest.  His allies were rightist, he drew followers from the right, and well wishers in France, Britain and the US were right wingers.

But were they considered rightist then? (honest question, cause I've seen both things being claimed)
As for conservative... fasists, communists and national-socialists were all -according to their own propaganda/programme- building new societies. Unlike what came before. Not exactly something one associates with conservatism.
Cause the (extreme-)left in many countries didn't have many problems cooperating with national-socialist Hitler before june 41. And it's not because the NSDAP was an ardent enemy of the communists that they suddenly become the opposite. After all: strife is often fiercest within the same family.

as it is a left-right axis is hardly adequate to explain/clarify where a party or person stands. Too easy to put parties and persons on a point where they don't belong

[Josquius]

There's more to be said for Stalin being right wing than Hitler somehow being left.

[The Brain]

There's more to be said for Stalin being right wing than Hitler somehow being left.

[Admiral Yi]

 

I'm curious Squeeze; what are the characteristics that you associate with the left and with the right?

[Josquius]

I didn't say Stalin was right wing. I said there was a better argument for that than the silly argument that often pops up about Hitler being left wing.

[Admiral Yi]

I didn't say Stalin was right wing. I said there was a better argument for that than the silly argument that often pops up about Hitler being left wing.

Let's hear it.

[Eddie Teach]

Define repressive policies regarding democracy and freedom of speech and the like as "right wing". Done.

Of course, it's completely arbitrary and self-serving and the opposition will disagree.

[Admiral Yi]

No one like a kibbitzer Weegro. 

[Razgovory]

I didn't say Stalin was right wing. I said there was a better argument for that than the silly argument that often pops up about Hitler being left wing.

Let's hear it.

I can make it.  Stalin allied with the Right communists.  He passed laws outlawing abortion and promoting family values.  He was greatly increased the military and probably killed more Reds and leftists then the US did in Vietnam and Korea combined.  Of course it's a nonsense argument.  He was a communist and thus a leftist.  Just like the Hitler is a leftist argument.

[Admiral Yi]

Just like the Hitler is a leftist argument.

No one has made that argument.

[Razgovory]

But were they considered rightist then? (honest question, cause I've seen both things being claimed)
As for conservative... fasists, communists and national-socialists were all -according to their own propaganda/programme- building new societies. Unlike what came before. Not exactly something one associates with conservatism.
Cause the (extreme-)left in many countries didn't have many problems cooperating with national-socialist Hitler before june 41. And it's not because the NSDAP was an ardent enemy of the communists that they suddenly become the opposite. After all: strife is often fiercest within the same family.

as it is a left-right axis is hardly adequate to explain/clarify where a party or person stands. Too easy to put parties and persons on a point where they don't belong

They were considered rightists then.  The Nazis were not conservative (though they allied with the conservatives to get themselves into power), They were reactionary (though in their own words they claimed to transcend political ideology).  The extreme left did have a hard time allying with the Nazis before 1941.  When Stalin allied with Hitler he lost a lot of support in Western countries.  The NSDAP was an ardent enemy of communists they fought them in the streets in Germany, threw them in camps when they came to power and fought them internationally in Spain.

Extreme right wingers and anti-communists often praised Nazis and Fascists.  In France the rightists slogan was "better Hitler then Blum (the Jewish socialist), The Daily Mail praised fascists, and the American Legion invited Mussolini to speak.