Majority of U.S. public school students are in poverty; first time in 50 years

[CountDeMoney]

But it isn't a refutation of the general observation, but rather an explanation for why from their perspective it doesn't appear to be irresponsible per se...but in fact it is just that, because the reality is that (in the US at least) it is entirely possible to get out of poverty. It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly. But it does require people to make good decisions, and in many cases the people who have to make those good decisions are not equipped to do so because of the very environment they are raised in.

I do wonder about that - it seems to me that it is getting harder and harder for those not already doing well to lift themselves into doing well. Hence the title article of the thread. 

The lot of us are simply too old to have a good handle on this. When I was starting out, sure it was not too hard to get jobs, and even a shitty service-sector job was a decent springboard into something better - so work hard and even without higher education (not all that hard, in Canada at least, to get anyway), and you could at least be decently okay.

I just don't know how true that is anymore. From what I hear, it appears to be a lot harder.

Berkut said it was "possible", not probable.  The odds were always against it even during the best of times, when there was actual social awareness and political sympathy, but those odds in breaking the cycle of poverty have increased substantially.

And really, Malthus, with all due respect...you "starting out" /= "starting out" from the baseline of institutionalized generational poverty.   Dude.  C'mon.

[Berkut]

But it isn't a refutation of the general observation, but rather an explanation for why from their perspective it doesn't appear to be irresponsible per se...but in fact it is just that, because the reality is that (in the US at least) it is entirely possible to get out of poverty. It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly. But it does require people to make good decisions, and in many cases the people who have to make those good decisions are not equipped to do so because of the very environment they are raised in.

I do wonder about that - it seems to me that it is getting harder and harder for those not already doing well to lift themselves into doing well. Hence the title article of the thread. 

The lot of us are simply too old to have a good handle on this. When I was starting out, sure it was not too hard to get jobs, and even a shitty service-sector job was a decent springboard into something better - so work hard and even without higher education (not all that hard, in Canada at least, to get anyway), and you could at least be decently okay.

I just don't know how true that is anymore. From what I hear, it appears to be a lot harder.

I agree that it may be hard for us to really have a feel for it, of course.

But I also think that what has become harder moreso recently is to move from the lower middle class into the actual middle class. I think those good paying, mid-level jobs have become very scarce, relatively so anyway. And I think that kind of gets blurred into the poverty discussion. Which perhaps is a good thing.

But when I talk about poverty, I mean *poverty*. I mean a family of seven living in a 2 bedroom shithole apartment and living on a twice a week trip to the local church free meal dinner and trips to the free clothes clinic and drugs and alcohol, and all that goes along with serious poverty.

And the idea that that demographic is composed largely of people making good decisions with bad outcomes is laughable. It is not - it is composed of desperation, ignorance, stupidity, no education, and a complete lack of self awareness or responsibility. The *reasons* they lack those things are not because they are fundamentally bad people overall, but because they are fundamentally normal people in terrible situations that result in them largely being incapable of making rational, long term choices to improve their situation.

Further, those that ARE capable of making those rational, long term desicions to improve their future do so...and are no longer part of that population. So of course those that are left are the ones who do not - how that is not grossly self evident is beyond me.

Yes, it is possible to get our of poverty. And those who can...do. Those who cannot, remain. The goal of society is to make it so that the bar for getting out is as reasonable as possible, so as many people as possible can do so. That has a lot to do with understanding and combating the very forces that lead to bad decisions. Education, education, education. Hope. Empowerment. How do you change the culture of despair that leads people to make patently terrible choices like "I don't care if I get pregnant at 16, what difference does it make anyway?"

Pretending that that choice isn't really a bad choice because it makes us feel better about not being judgmental is counter-productive.

Just my opinion of course, and what do I know? I have two older brothers and a mother still in abject poverty. They are both career drug addicts, alcoholics and petty criminals. But not because they don't make excellent choices at all times, of course.

[Malthus]

But it isn't a refutation of the general observation, but rather an explanation for why from their perspective it doesn't appear to be irresponsible per se...but in fact it is just that, because the reality is that (in the US at least) it is entirely possible to get out of poverty. It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly. But it does require people to make good decisions, and in many cases the people who have to make those good decisions are not equipped to do so because of the very environment they are raised in.

I do wonder about that - it seems to me that it is getting harder and harder for those not already doing well to lift themselves into doing well. Hence the title article of the thread. 

The lot of us are simply too old to have a good handle on this. When I was starting out, sure it was not too hard to get jobs, and even a shitty service-sector job was a decent springboard into something better - so work hard and even without higher education (not all that hard, in Canada at least, to get anyway), and you could at least be decently okay.

I just don't know how true that is anymore. From what I hear, it appears to be a lot harder.

Berkut said it was "possible", not probable.  The odds were always against it even during the best of times, when there was actual social awareness and political sympathy, but those odds in breaking the cycle of poverty have increased substantially.

And really, Malthus, with all due respect...you "starting out" /= "starting out" from the baseline of institutionalized generational poverty.   Dude.  C'mon.

Dude, I'm not claiming I "starting out" from the baseline of institutionalized generational poverty. Where are you getting that from?

All I am saying is that, when I was starting out (that is, the time I was young), it appeared to be easier all around - for anyone - than it is now. It's an observation about the times, not my personal circumstances.

Berkut said "It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly". That's what I am commenting on. How are you reading that as "... "possible", not probable"?

I don't get why you are taking swings at me, to be honest. It everyone in this thread totally insane, such that actual dispassionate discussion of issues is not possible? 

[crazy canuck]

Dude, I'm not claiming I "starting out" from the baseline of institutionalized generational poverty. Where are you getting that from?

He is undoubtedly recalling your impoverished beginnings of being the son of a mere university professor. 

[CountDeMoney]

Dude, I'm not claiming I "starting out" from the baseline of institutionalized generational poverty. Where are you getting that from?

He is undoubtedly recalling your impoverished beginnings of being the son of a mere university professor. 

One would think, in a thread about poverty, observations like "When I was starting out, sure it was not too hard to get jobs," would actually look as stunningly condescending and arrogant before pressing "POST" as it does afterwards.

You out-of-touch balls of light on Team Canada get so much shit around here for a reason.  Fucking fairy tale princesses.

[crazy canuck]

Fucking fairy tale princesses.

I think that was a compliment 

[grumbler]

I hope you dont teach logic to your students.  There are a lot of reasons poor people might tend to be disadvantaged compared to rich people in stats like unwanted pregnancy that have little or nothing to do with being irresponsible.  But when someone makes the claim, like you Berkut and DPS have made that poor people tend to be more irresponsible you gloss over all the othe possible explanations and go right for the argument that in some way being poor makes people more irresponsible than others.

Is it really possible in Canada for a functional illiterate like you to charge money for intellectual services?  Wile there may be "many reasons" why people have unwanted pregnancies, the number-one reason, by far, is fucking without adequate protection against pregnancy, i.e. irresponsibility.  You may be a weasel, but you can't weasel out of that fact.  As to why they tend to act irresponsibility, I have gone into that in some detail, with sources (unlike you, with your unsupportable assertions and complete lack of evidence).  And, no, your "anecdotes" are not evidence.

[grumbler]

... It everyone in this thread totally insane, such that actual dispassionate discussion of issues is not possible? 

I asked exactly this question a page or so back, and the shrill hysteria of the answers argued against rational ability.

[Malthus]

One would think, in a thread about poverty, observations like "When I was starting out, sure it was not too hard to get jobs," would actually look as stunningly condescending and arrogant before pressing "POST" as it does afterwards.

You out-of-touch balls of light on Team Canada get so much shit around here for a reason.  Fucking fairy tale princesses.

... yet you have no problem with Berkut saying ""It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly" about right now.  I guess he gets a pass on that from the enraged embittered yankee peanut gallery. 

[CountDeMoney]

... yet you have no problem with Berkut saying ""It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly" about right now.  I guess he gets a pass on that from the enraged embittered yankee peanut gallery. 

Well, yeah.     Because down here, "poverty" is a problem that--with just a little grit and determination with absolutely no help from anybody, especially the government--you can overcome pretty easily. 

[Berkut]

One would think, in a thread about poverty, observations like "When I was starting out, sure it was not too hard to get jobs," would actually look as stunningly condescending and arrogant before pressing "POST" as it does afterwards.

You out-of-touch balls of light on Team Canada get so much shit around here for a reason.  Fucking fairy tale princesses.

... yet you have no problem with Berkut saying ""It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly" about right now.  I guess he gets a pass on that from the enraged embittered yankee peanut gallery. 

I don't think I really need a pass though - I mean, if it has become harder, then ok - but we would need to see some evidence of that before my experience can be dismissed as not relevant. And it would have to be pretty serious evidence, right, that there has been a very significant shift in the last generation or so that would make it so much harder that previous indicators are not at all indicative anymore?

BTW, I have no problem with anything you've said so far, I mostly agree with you in the thread. There is plenty of room for discussion on the topic without the need to act like a douchebag.

The reason I say it isn't even all that hard is that (again, this is of course personal experience) even for myself, I look back on the choices I made, and I made plenty of bad ones. I never took school seriously until I was nearly 26, for example. Got terrible grades in high school. I could have gotten excellent grades, and had my choice of academic scholarships had I worked to anything close to my potential.

So when I say it isn't that hard, what I mean is that it isn't that hard to NOT make the REALLY bad choices. I made bad choices, but relevant to the bad choices that people make that result in them having a much harder road from poverty (drugs, children as children, drinking, dropping out of high school altogether) my bad choices were mild. In fact, I never even *considered* the really bad choices that plenty of people around me made - it was simply self-evident to me that it would be foolish to drop out of high school, for example.

So, from the standpoint of a bright, reasonably motivated poor kid, it didn't seem that hard, at least in hindsight. I worked a lot in high school and college. It wasn't easy from that standpoint, but I didn't ever think there was any realistic chance that I would fail, barring some tragedy that could screw up anyone.

[grumbler]

... yet you have no problem with Berkut saying ""It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly" about right now.  I guess he gets a pass on that from the enraged embittered yankee peanut gallery. 

I think that this issue is, as you point out, quite different now.  Thirty or so years ago, one could get out of poverty without even possessing a high school diploma by getting a job in light manufacturing (and eventually heavy manufacturing, if you were lucky).  Those jobs are mostly long gone, replaced by machinery or offshored.  While new jobs have opened up, they require more education, experience, or both.  Unskilled labor generally doesn't pay a living wage.

[Berkut]

... yet you have no problem with Berkut saying ""It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly" about right now.  I guess he gets a pass on that from the enraged embittered yankee peanut gallery. 

Well, yeah.     Because down here, "poverty" is a problem that--with just a little grit and determination with absolutely no help from anybody, especially the government--you can overcome pretty easily. 

Total strawman, nobody is making any such argument.

I had plenty of help from the government, for example. Free high school education, pell grants, guaranteed student loans, an infrastructure that provided an excellent education at a reasonable cost, etc., etc., etc.

I don't think anyone at all has argued that any of that should go away.

[CountDeMoney]

... yet you have no problem with Berkut saying ""It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly" about right now.  I guess he gets a pass on that from the enraged embittered yankee peanut gallery. 

Well, yeah.     Because down here, "poverty" is a problem that--with just a little grit and determination with absolutely no help from anybody, especially the government--you can overcome pretty easily. 

Total strawman, nobody is making any such argument.

I had plenty of help from the government, for example. Free high school education, pell grants, guaranteed student loans, an infrastructure that provided an excellent education at a reasonable cost, etc., etc., etc.

I don't think anyone at all has argued that any of that should go away.

You have a major political party, elected state governments and a substantial portion of the national electorate that says, and votes, otherwise.  And the campaign season is only getting started. 

[Berkut]

... yet you have no problem with Berkut saying ""It isn't even all that hard, quite honestly" about right now.  I guess he gets a pass on that from the enraged embittered yankee peanut gallery. 

Well, yeah.     Because down here, "poverty" is a problem that--with just a little grit and determination with absolutely no help from anybody, especially the government--you can overcome pretty easily. 

Total strawman, nobody is making any such argument.

I had plenty of help from the government, for example. Free high school education, pell grants, guaranteed student loans, an infrastructure that provided an excellent education at a reasonable cost, etc., etc., etc.

I don't think anyone at all has argued that any of that should go away.

You have a major political party, elected state governments and a substantial portion of the national electorate that says, and votes, otherwise.  And the campaign season is only getting started. 

And that party has been a major party for, well, forever, and been in power at least half the time, and yet none of those things have gone away, or even decreased...in fact, they've all increased steadily and continue to do so.

If someone shows up arguing that we should reduce funding for education, I will be right there with you arguing against it. But your hyperbole is bonkers. It is rage without an actual target, rage for it's own sake.