Bosnian imam attacked 7 times over call to stay out of Syria

Started by garbon, January 05, 2015, 02:52:58 PM

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Valmy

#15
January 05, 2015, 07:48:51 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 05, 2015, 06:05:07 PM
WTF?
I have no idea what this says as the Wikipedia supplied translation is not in any form of cognizable English.  However, it doesn't have Muhammad doing any beheading as far as I can see.

The underlying Quranic verse doesn't say anything of the sort.

The Quran never says anything that straightforward.  The verse in question is presumed to refer to the incident which is traditional.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Viking

#16
January 05, 2015, 08:05:53 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 05, 2015, 06:05:07 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 05, 2015, 04:06:13 PM
When did Muhammed behead anybody?

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_QurayzaNo woman of Banu Qurayza was killed except one. She was with me, talking and laughing on her back and belly (extremely), while the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) was killing her people with the swords. Suddenly a man called her name: Where is so-and-so? She said: I I asked: What is the matter with you? She said: I did a new act. She said: The man took her and beheaded her. She said: I will not forget that she was laughing extremely although she knew that she would be killed.
Sunan Abu Dawud 14:2665

WTF?
I have no idea what this says as the Wikipedia supplied translation is not in any form of cognizable English.  However, it doesn't have Muhammad doing any beheading as far as I can see.

The underlying Quranic verse doesn't say anything of the sort.

It's from the hadith of abu dawud, so not the Koran.

The other hadith referenced int eh wikipedia article refert to beheading, this was the one that referred to the prophet doing the killing rather than merely ordering it.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Razgovory

#17
January 05, 2015, 08:15:38 PM
Serious question: Viking, have even read the books you are quoting from?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

grumbler

#18
January 05, 2015, 08:30:50 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 05, 2015, 08:05:53 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 05, 2015, 06:05:07 PM
Quote from: Viking on January 05, 2015, 04:06:13 PM
When did Muhammed behead anybody?

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_QurayzaNo woman of Banu Qurayza was killed except one. She was with me, talking and laughing on her back and belly (extremely), while the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) was killing her people with the swords. Suddenly a man called her name: Where is so-and-so? She said: I I asked: What is the matter with you? She said: I did a new act. She said: The man took her and beheaded her. She said: I will not forget that she was laughing extremely although she knew that she would be killed.
Sunan Abu Dawud 14:2665

WTF?
I have no idea what this says as the Wikipedia supplied translation is not in any form of cognizable English.  However, it doesn't have Muhammad doing any beheading as far as I can see.

The underlying Quranic verse doesn't say anything of the sort.

It's from the hadith of abu dawud, so not the Koran.

The other hadith referenced int eh wikipedia article refert to beheading, this was the one that referred to the prophet doing the killing rather than merely ordering it.

And, given that this source, the closest you can find to showing Muhammad beheading people, does not in fact refer to him doing any such thing, I think you have scored an own goal.

Again.

You are, at least, reliable.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Jacob

#19
January 05, 2015, 08:48:10 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 05, 2015, 08:30:50 PMAnd, given that this source, the closest you can find to showing Muhammad beheading people, does not in fact refer to him doing any such thing, I think you have scored an own goal.

Again.

You are, at least, reliable.

Well... it says that "a man" beheads the woman. Maybe Imam Viking has the Qu'ranic scholarship to say with great certitude that "the man" in question is Mohammad. I myself am no scholar of the subject, and normally would expect the Hadiths to explicitly name the Prophet and use the customary honourifics, but if Imam Viking says otherwise, who are we to doubt him?

Queequeg

#20
January 05, 2015, 09:57:11 PM
Kind of hard to argue that terrorism is a form of blowback when a people we saved from slaughter are now clamoring to kill us. 
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

Ed Anger

#21
January 05, 2015, 09:59:58 PM
Richard Dawkins eats his own poop.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

Jacob

#22
January 06, 2015, 12:38:39 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on January 05, 2015, 09:57:11 PM
Kind of hard to argue that terrorism is a form of blowback when a people we saved from slaughter are now clamoring to kill us.

Which people did you save from slaughter and now they are clamouring to kill you?

Razgovory

#23
January 06, 2015, 12:50:54 AM
Psellus came up with an elaborate plot to save a pig using spider webs.  Then the pig bit him.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Sheilbh

#24
January 06, 2015, 07:12:31 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on January 05, 2015, 09:57:11 PM
Kind of hard to argue that terrorism is a form of blowback when a people we saved from slaughter are now clamoring to kill us.
That is not the way Bosniaks see it.
Let's bomb Russia!

KRonn

#25
January 06, 2015, 08:30:57 AM
At least this Imam is speaking out against the idea of joining the extremists of ISIL and other such groups. That he is attacked for it is no surprise, but I hope he continues to speak out and that many others join him. That would be good for Islam to try and impede this extremism that goes on to the detriment of Muslims who are among the main targets, and also for non-Muslims who are also savagely targeted.

Sheilbh

#27
January 06, 2015, 09:36:31 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 06, 2015, 09:23:32 AMHow do Bosniaks see it?
Their view is that the international community imposed an arms embargo on Yugoslavia while they were being massacred. The embargo didn't affect the Croats (who got guns through money laundering in Italy and allegedly the Vatican) or the Bosnian Serbs who were supported by the Yugoslav army (then the third largest in Europe) but did massively affect the ability of Bosniak forces to fight or to defend themselves.

Eventually Turkish and Saudi money (and fighters) were able to get through the embargo. The Bosniaks were in a better position to fight back and were starting to win battles. At that point (not when they were being killed) the international community basically stepped in and imposed a peace. The peace is still very contentious because one of its sad, pragmatic effects is that some ethnic cleansing worked. The other issue of course is that Dayton was only meant to last a year or so after which a Bosnian written constitution would go forward. Obviously nothing of that sort has happened.

It rankles that Srebernica is in Srpska, for example, and the only real acknowledgement of what happened there in Srebernica is whenever the international community go to have an event. But even then I've been told on the roads in Srpska from Sarajevo to Srebernica people put pictures of Karadzic and Mladic in house and shop windows. Similarly there are towns where I know people who've dug up mass graves of Bosniaks but the only memorial in the town is to the Serb heroes who liberated it.

Obviously that's a very partial version, but that's what I've been told Bosniaks think - I've friends who've worked in the international community who've explained their view when I see them. But their view and apparently it's an opinion shared by other internationals is that it's only a matter of time before there's another civil war in Bosnia.

Edit: The description of the arms embargo reminded me of the Spanish Civil War in a way.
Let's bomb Russia!

Sheilbh

#29
January 06, 2015, 10:09:22 AM Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 10:12:52 AM by Sheilbh
They'd reached a deal with the Croats and were very much on the offensive at the end.

Edit: See the map here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_Agreement#mediaviewer/File:1995_Croat_and_Bosniak_Counteroffensives.jpg
Let's bomb Russia!
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