Anders Breivic, Three Years On

[Razgovory]

I think it makes a lot of good points. It also jibes with what a couple of friends opinions and experiences having lived in Norway and the Netherlands.

It's something that I've always found a little troubling, things like gay rights suddenly becoming an accessory for the far-right because we're a useful tool to attack another minority.

It is a bit odd to see people who believe in the traditional roles of women use that same issue against the Muslims.

[Valmy]

What are the valid criticisms of Muslims.

I think dietary and dress restrictions in religion is absurd.  It preserves certain arbitrary cultural things as eternal, which is ridiculous, and I do not think serves much of a spiritual purpose.  There are certainly other aspects of Islam I do like.  But that is just my view, not sure how valid that is.  What would be an example of a valid criticism of a religion or culture in your opinion since you are asking? 

What are the valid criticisms of gays?

What do gays have in common that could be criticized?

[Valmy]

It is a bit odd to see people who believe in the traditional roles of women use that same issue against the Muslims.

Are these actually the same people?  I see the right do this sort of thing to the left all the time and just lump all leftwing values together as if all different flavors of left-wingers agree on everything.  I don't know maybe they are, but I have a hard time thinking this is what a Putinist or a Golden Dawn person would attack Muslims for.  But maybe they do.

[Martinus]

No. 

So...not the far right?

What I meant is this is not what Sheilbh was saying. The far-right is not campaigning for "gay rights among Muslims". What they are doing - and this is usually in the societies where gay rights are already a done-deal so there is no cultural war over them any more - they are saying "Oh look, if we allow Muslims in, they will breed us out, and get enough votes to abolish your precious woman and gay rights." Which I suppose is hypocritical as they were themselves against these rights few years ago.

both the far-right and the far-left will naturally consider it biased against them and there is no inconsistency there.

Absolutely.  Far-left and far-right people are generally paranoid nutcases.

Well, as I said, it depends on a country what is considered mainstream and what is considered extreme. For example, in Poland the "moderate conservative" worldview is considered to be mainstream, so things that are pretty vanilla centrist (like gay marriage, abortion for "social reasons", etc.) in the West are considered "extreme left" causes here. And they are presented in quite a biased way in the mainstream media* (which does not prevent the very same media from being equally hostile to extreme right wing causes - but you can imagine what is considered "extreme right wing" in Poland ).

*For example, until recently, gay pride marches were reported on - even in the more liberal / left leaning mainstream media - by focusing on the freak show aspect. And since they could not find many freaks in Polish gay pride marches (which are usually more subdued and "normalised" affairs), they sometimes accompanied reports on, say, Warsaw pride (without any commentary) by stock footage from San Francisco or Berlin love parade. Clearly you can see how this can distort the public view of gays.

[Martinus]

What are the valid criticisms of Muslims.

I think dietary and dress restrictions in religion is absurd.  It preserves certain arbitrary cultural things as eternal, which is ridiculous, and I do not think serves much of a spiritual purpose.  There are certainly other aspects of Islam I do like.  But that is just my view, not sure how valid that is.  What would be an example of a valid criticism of a religion or culture in your opinion since you are asking? 

What are the valid criticisms of gays?

What do gays have in common that could be criticized?

I think elements of culture that tend to instil certain attitudes and behaviours in people can be criticised.

For the Muslim culture that could be contempt for women as less equal than men, or hostility towards gays.

For the gay culture that could be the youth/looks obsession, promiscuity, risky sexual behaviours.

That is not to say all Muslims or all gays are like this, but I think it is a no-brainer that cultures (and sub-cultures) can have detrimental effects on their members, and it makes sense to try to correct these effects through education and the like.

[Martinus]

Are these actually the same people? 

Yes and no. The European far right is becoming much more difficult to pin-point. For an example, take Marine Le Pen. She is against gay marriage, but she attacks Muslims over treatment of women and gays. Likewise, as a woman, she is an example of gender equality - but I would not exclude the possibility that many people who vote for Front National (and especially those who "joined" when her father was still in charge) hold very traditional views on gender roles.

Partly, I blame what I already said to Sheilbh - because Muslim immigration and resulting cultural clashes are an issue in the West, and the mainstream politicians fail not only to propose a resolution, but even to acknowledge that the issue exists (and those who think there is one are shouted down as far-right racists), people tend to gravitate to far-right parties.

[Viking]

I think it makes a lot of good points. It also jibes with what a couple of friends opinions and experiences having lived in Norway and the Netherlands.

It's something that I've always found a little troubling, things like gay rights suddenly becoming an accessory for the far-right because we're a useful tool to attack another minority.

The problem is that this gets an equally troubling equivalent on the left, i.e. any criticism of Muslims, including their attitudes towards women and gays, is branded as "islamophobia".

To paraphrase an old saying, if any criticism of Islam is viewed as a far right thing, only far right parties will criticise Islam.

What are the valid criticisms of Muslims.  What are the valid criticisms of gays?

Going after ideas that people hold is ok, going after what people are isn't.

[Sheilbh]

The problem is that this gets an equally troubling equivalent on the left, i.e. any criticism of Muslims, including their attitudes towards women and gays, is branded as "islamophobia".

To paraphrase an old saying, if any criticism of Islam is viewed as a far right thing, only far right parties will criticise Islam.

But I don't think that's true, certainly not anymore. It reminds me of general discussion of immigration in this country. It almost always starts with a politician/columnist/hack saying 'we need to have a conversation about immigration' as if we talk about anything else and as if their views are somehow being stigmatised by the PC left.

For something that's apparently so beyond the pale criticism of Islam is an extraordinarily profitable niche view. There are best-selling books and columnists dragging in hundreds of thousands a year that talk about little else. Tommy Robinson, former leader of the English Defence League, gets an hour long TV show in which he confronts various Muslim leaders trying to find, in his view, the 'mythical' moderate Muslim (though I hate the use of moderate there) - though he eventually does in an counter-extremism think tank.

There's no comparison with things that are actually beyond the pale: bigotry.

Now having said all that I do think we need to be very alive to the fact that criticism of Islam can become Islamophobia and it can lead to the sort of radical literature that does affect someone like Breivik or the British soldier (and wannabe terrorist) who was arrested yesterday.

My position on this is broadly speaking to always follow Peter Tatchell. He's a national treasure. He was a radical gay rights activist in the 80s and 90s but has since branched out into more general human rights, he tried to perform a citizen's arrest on Robert Mugabe twice. Though he did used to still go to gay pride marches in Russia and anti-war demos during Gaza operations with signs saying 'Israel: Stop Oppressing Palestine! Palestine: Stop Oppressing Gays!'

But he is fearless right now in drawing attention to human rights abuses against women and minorities in the Muslim world like Christians and gays and equally fierce in rejecting the suggestion that this is somehow imperialist of him. But I think the fact that people from Richard Littlejohn, through Nick Cohen to Peter Tatchell are making these criticisms is an indication that it's the preserve of the far-right or somehow ostracised.

I can't think of a country that hasn't had some tortured debate about integration over the last few years, which is largely about the Muslim community.

What I meant is this is not what Sheilbh was saying. The far-right is not campaigning for "gay rights among Muslims". What they are doing - and this is usually in the societies where gay rights are already a done-deal so there is no cultural war over them any more - they are saying "Oh look, if we allow Muslims in, they will breed us out, and get enough votes to abolish your precious woman and gay rights." Which I suppose is hypocritical as they were themselves against these rights few years ago.

Yep. The EDL always, always have a guy with a rainbow flag at their marches and it really annoys me. Because I don't think for a minute that the EDL would be championing gay rights if it weren't something they can use to attack Muslims. Frankly and I hate to be so snobbish but you look at some of them in that group and they look like recreational gay bashers.

I lived in Tower Hamlets which is a very Muslim borough of London and the EDL wanted to march down a main street. There was a big counter-demonstration I went to and, unsurprisingly, Peter Tatchell was there with from memory a sign saying something like 'GAYS AGAINST FASCISM'. He drew some attention and abuse from a group of young Bengali men over this from a distance. So he decided to march up and talk to them about it which he did for about five minutes. I heard bits about how it doesn't matter if they like him, or agree with what he wants to do or if he likes them or agrees with them, but it's about respect and that you show each other respect regardless etc. I didn't hear much but I admired him for it. But after a few minutes he left with them shaking his hand and entirely happy with a gay-Muslim popular front in Whitechapel

[Martinus]

My position on this is broadly speaking to always follow Peter Tatchell. He's a national treasure. He was a radical gay rights activist in the 80s and 90s but has since branched out into more general human rights, he tried to perform a citizen's arrest on Robert Mugabe twice. Though he did used to still go to gay pride marches in Russia and anti-war demos during Gaza operations with signs saying 'Israel: Stop Oppressing Palestine! Palestine: Stop Oppressing Gays!'

Yes, but this kind of attitude (which I agree with), is actually lambasted as islamophobia by some of the human rights activists. Have you read about the scandal when one such famous activist refused to accept a prize from the coalition of German LGBT movements because they espoused views like the ones you describe by Tatchell - and she accused them of being racist and islamophobic, and not respecting "cultural diversity"?

I lived in Tower Hamlets which is a very Muslim borough of London and the EDL wanted to march down a main street. There was a big counter-demonstration I went to and, unsurprisingly, Peter Tatchell was there with from memory a sign saying something like 'GAYS AGAINST FASCISM'. He drew some attention and abuse from a group of young Bengali men over this from a distance. So he decided to march up and talk to them about it which he did for about five minutes. I heard bits about how it doesn't matter if they like him, or agree with what he wants to do or if he likes them or agrees with them, but it's about respect and that you show each other respect regardless etc. I didn't hear much but I admired him for it. But after a few minutes he left with them shaking his hand and entirely happy with a gay-Muslim popular front in Whitechapel

Was it after or before there were "sharia patrols" and "gay-free zone" stickers in Tower Hamlets?

Maybe they put these stickers as a sign of sadness that you moved out?

[Sheilbh]

Yes, but this kind of attitude (which I agree with), is actually lambasted as islamophobia by some of the human rights activists. Have you read about the scandal when one such famous activist refused to accept a prize from the coalition of German LGBT movements because they espoused views like the ones you describe by Tatchell - and she accused them of being racist and islamophobic, and not respecting "cultural diversity"?

I hadn't. But I think they're the minority. I think in a decade of Hitchens and Tatchells, of multiculturalism's 'utter failure' and the burqa ban, or Tommy Robinson's rehabilitation that the idea that you can't criticise Islam or the left will jump on you just doesn't hold up.

It seems like all other sorts of conservative victimisation. Everyone's oppressed by political correctness, if they weren't they'd agree with me that Muslims need to eat bacon and immigrants need to go home. It's the flip-side of the left-wing view that if only it weren't for Rupert Murdoch and the false consciousness of those nasty tabloids we'd have already built a Communist utopia.

[Viking]

Yes, but this kind of attitude (which I agree with), is actually lambasted as islamophobia by some of the human rights activists. Have you read about the scandal when one such famous activist refused to accept a prize from the coalition of German LGBT movements because they espoused views like the ones you describe by Tatchell - and she accused them of being racist and islamophobic, and not respecting "cultural diversity"?

I hadn't. But I think they're the minority. I think in a decade of Hitchens and Tatchells, of multiculturalism's 'utter failure' and the burqa ban, or Tommy Robinson's rehabilitation that the idea that you can't criticise Islam or the left will jump on you just doesn't hold up.

It seems like all other sorts of conservative victimisation. Everyone's oppressed by political correctness, if they weren't they'd agree with me that Muslims need to eat bacon and immigrants need to go home. It's the flip-side of the left-wing view that if only it weren't for Rupert Murdoch and the false consciousness of those nasty tabloids we'd have already built a Communist utopia.

Because Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins etc. etc. don't get rountinely accused of racism when they do to islam what they usually do to christianity?

Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens: New Atheists flirt with Islamophobia

I could list a long list, but google did the hard work for me

https://www.google.no/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=IAN7VJq9DcqK8Qfvn4HoBA#safe=off&q=new+atheism+islapmophobia

The very point is that is precisely what does happen. Even to Jack Straw of all people Dangerous attack or fair point? Straw veil row deepens

[Sheilbh]

So? They get hurt feelings.

The way people talk it's like political correctness is the inquisition, in which case it's a very coy one. Was Calvin flirting with heresy?

If people genuinely think a politician or a journalist is racist, then their career's over. But people don't even think Nigel Farage is a racist (in general) and he doesn't want them to think he's racist because he knows it would kill off his career and possibly his party. The accusations made in Salon or Comment is Free don't mean anything.

These people continue to have careers, people continue to buy copy that's critical of Islam and people keep producing it. As one journalist commented in the Leveson Inquiry for a while his job was to find negative stories about Muslims, or to make them up, because it's a great-selling headline. There's more to 'the left' (of which Tatchell, Hitchens, Straw and Cohen are members in good standing - not to mention all the other similar writers/activists) silencing people through political correctness than accusations. The key bit is that lots of people agree that that opinion is best off silent - not in major newspapers or political parties. That hasn't happened with Islam which is why there's a very vibrant, profitable strand of criticism and a rather meeker set of of apologists.

And to boil it down to just numbers the Daily Mail, the Daily Express, the Telegraph, the Sun sell a lot, lot more and matter a lot more the Guardian and the Independent. Similarly the conservative online media world and Salon () or Slate.

[Martinus]

Noone is making a point that people are prosecuted for criticising islam. I think the point is that people who hold moderately leftist / centrist views (unlike Farage and his supporters) but are sceptical about religious, including Islamic, fundamentalism do actually care if they are called racist by the fringe leftists and there isn't enough repudation of such name calling from the left in general. So such people end up abandoning the left - which hurts legitimate leftist causes.

The left is essentially making the same mistake as the right did when they vilified gays and other minorities - thus pushing then into the waiting arms of the left even though they may, on balance choose to vote right on some or most issues. The left is now mirroring the same attitude by vilifying people who are sceptical about Islam (such as recently Bill Maher) and this is why right wing parties in Europe are growing in popularity.

[Norgy]

I love how left or right everybody is sure the press is conspiring against them.  I am impressed how the media manages to enrage everybody equally.

I take it as a sign that media is doing a decent enough job.

As for the article, I agree in one sense that Breivik got exactly what he wanted; publicity. Fjordman got his 15 minutes of fame and a grant (!!!) for his writing. But that's how free speech works. Tolerate the intolerable. And enraging ISIL supporters is a Good Thing. 

[Martinus]

This is the same mechanism as the recent furore from some feminists over that guy's shirt - essentially, the rhetoric from certain parts of the left has become hateful and toxic, and this is hurting the left as a whole.  This is something I regret because the left is very weak these days in most Western countries.