Incest a 'fundamental right', German committee says

[viper37]

I dont think there is an easy comparison between the harm done by smoking pot to the abusive situation of a parent having sex with their child.

We were specifically discussing adult sex.

I can't imagine any circumstances in which such a sexual relationship should ever be allowed.  Berkut goes on about liberty and such but I dont think liberty means allowing parents to prey on their children.   What happened to the "liberty" of the child?  The argument that a child can give "consent" to having sex with their parent when they become an adult is nonsensical as the case I referred to about clearly shows.

But again, we were discussing about adults, not minors.  There are already laws for adults having sex with a minor, related or not.  There is the age of consent (15), and above that, there are penalties for adults having sex with a 17 year old to wich they have an authority link.  And I think this is fine as it is.  We put all kind of restrictions on what parent can and cannot do to their kids for the sake of the children, this is no different.

However, even if we may assume that in some point in their life, an adult participant in incest was coherced... it is, again, in my humble opinion, quite a stretch to convict consenting adults for what may have happenned in the past.

Berkut's response?  Bad facts make made laws.  Nice maxim.  Doesnt fit here.  He would have to demonstrate that its ok for parents to have sex with their children for those facts to be isolated and not worth addressing.

I'll let you discuss with Berkut.

I am in general agreement that the State has no business regulating sexual relations between adults.  But this isnt really just a a matter of a relationship between adults - this is a relationship which starts in childhood (although may not become sexual until later).  As such I think there is an important distinction between this sort of relationship and others.

But to legislate this, we have to assume it is nearly always the case that it started under pressure when they were minors.  And incest doesn't only involve parents, but also siblings of the same age.

While I can see and agree to your argument about parental incest, I don't see how does that apply to brothers and sisters of about the same age.  And even if I were reasonably certain it started when both were minors, if none are talking today, if none are showing any kind of remorse or shame, should we really intervene?

I can see the case for strange religious communities, like Lev Tahor, who basically smuggle children from across the world to marry them to older member of the community, in this case, there are strong social pressure from the surrounding community and this is very strong.

But in a normal case?  I just don't know... And I tend to err on the side of caution in this case, meaning no specific legislation for adult incest.

[Malthus]

But to legislate this, we have to assume it is nearly always the case that it started under pressure when they were minors.  And incest doesn't only involve parents, but also siblings of the same age.

While I can see and agree to your argument about parental incest, I don't see how does that apply to brothers and sisters of about the same age.  And even if I were reasonably certain it started when both were minors, if none are talking today, if none are showing any kind of remorse or shame, should we really intervene?

I have little problem making the assumption that parents (1) have a disproportionate influence on their children; and (2) that this influence lasts into adulthood.

As for sibling incest - apparently, research has shown it is equivalent in harms to parental incest. Though admittedly, they only studied hetero incest.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213499000587

Conclusions: The authors conclude that the characteristics and consequences of brother-sister incest are of equal seriousness to those of father-daughter incest. This would suggest that brother-sister incest is one of the current blind spots in incest research, and one that we cannot afford to ignore. In-depth knowledge of the dynamics and effects of brother-sister incest suggest specific treatment strategies are indeed necessary and these are discussed in this paper.

[garbon]

As for sibling incest - apparently, research has shown it is equivalent in harms to parental incest. Though admittedly, they only studied hetero incest.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213499000587

Conclusions: The authors conclude that the characteristics and consequences of brother-sister incest are of equal seriousness to those of father-daughter incest. This would suggest that brother-sister incest is one of the current blind spots in incest research, and one that we cannot afford to ignore. In-depth knowledge of the dynamics and effects of brother-sister incest suggest specific treatment strategies are indeed necessary and these are discussed in this paper.

Well yes, I would expect that people who say they were abused are then going to show up as rather traumatized.

[Malthus]

As for sibling incest - apparently, research has shown it is equivalent in harms to parental incest. Though admittedly, they only studied hetero incest.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213499000587

Conclusions: The authors conclude that the characteristics and consequences of brother-sister incest are of equal seriousness to those of father-daughter incest. This would suggest that brother-sister incest is one of the current blind spots in incest research, and one that we cannot afford to ignore. In-depth knowledge of the dynamics and effects of brother-sister incest suggest specific treatment strategies are indeed necessary and these are discussed in this paper.

Well yes, I would expect that people who say they were abused are then going to show up as rather traumatized.

The issue is that they were traumatized equally. Researchers expected - but did not find - that the one group (parental incest) was more traumatized than the other (sibling incest).

As for "abused", that's a function of recruiting for such research - naturally, there are difficulties in studing those who do not self-identify as "victims", as they are unlikely to make themselves available for study. In this case, they did research on an incest victim's group.

[garbon]

As for sibling incest - apparently, research has shown it is equivalent in harms to parental incest. Though admittedly, they only studied hetero incest.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213499000587

Conclusions: The authors conclude that the characteristics and consequences of brother-sister incest are of equal seriousness to those of father-daughter incest. This would suggest that brother-sister incest is one of the current blind spots in incest research, and one that we cannot afford to ignore. In-depth knowledge of the dynamics and effects of brother-sister incest suggest specific treatment strategies are indeed necessary and these are discussed in this paper.

Well yes, I would expect that people who say they were abused are then going to show up as rather traumatized.

The issue is that they were traumatized equally. Researchers expected - but did not find - that the one group (parental incest) was more traumatized than the other (sibling incest).

As for "abused", that's a function of recruiting for such research - naturally, there are difficulties in studing those who do not self-identify as "victims", as they are unlikely to make themselves available for study. In this case, they did research on an incest victim's group.

I guess if we assume that everyone woman who is involved in incest is a "victim" then sure.

[The Brain]

If it isn't voluntary then we have rape laws. And if it is voluntary then I don't see the problem. I don't see what's so important about making the (possibly rare) cases where there is no weird shit going on illegal.

[grumbler]

You may want to quit now.

I don't think he can.  And I'm running out of popcorn... 

[crazy canuck]

I dont think there is an easy comparison between the harm done by smoking pot to the abusive situation of a parent having sex with their child.

We were specifically discussing adult sex.

Yes and the part I am specifically addressing is the rather odd notion (assumed by many here to be true) that an adult parent can have consensual sex with their adult child.  I get why Brain literally has a dog in this fight.  But I dont know why others seem to hold this view.

[Ideologue]

So, there's some pretty easy things we want to discourage - inbreeding and child sexual abuse. 

The problem is that if you want to avoid inbreeding, you're entering eugenics territory and determining what kind of offspring is desirable, and which one isn't.

Of course.  But eugenics flows logically from utilitarian political philosophy, and no other philosophical system really stands up to theoretical objections or empirical tests.

[Ideologue]

And all this misses the basic point, of course - it is the point most people who don't care about actual liberty gloss right over.

The idea that an adult cannot be allowed to make bad decisions for themselves in certain specific, narrow contexts, is what is so abhorrent about things like this, or support for mandating that people stay married even if they don't want to, or state demands that people not be allowed to marry outside their race, or that people not be allowed to have sex with their own gender, or whatever. It is all part and parcel of the same basic conceit that *some* people know what is best for *all* people, and have the right to force others to live their lives in the manner that the moral majority insists is best for them. It is the antithesis of freedom and liberty - tyranny with the very best of intentions. It is after all, what is best for them.

Tyranny is bad if the tyranny is bad, then?

[grumbler]

Tyranny is bad if the tyranny is bad, then?

Really?  This is a question for you?

"Tyranny" is bad when it is unnecessary.  And, when it is necessary, it isn't "tyranny."

[Martinus]

So, there's some pretty easy things we want to discourage - inbreeding and child sexual abuse. 

The problem is that if you want to avoid inbreeding, you're entering eugenics territory and determining what kind of offspring is desirable, and which one isn't.

Of course.  But eugenics flows logically from utilitarian political philosophy, and no other philosophical system really stands up to theoretical objections or empirical tests.

1. There are numerous theoretical objections to utilitarianism.
2. No philosophical system stands up to empirical tests.
3. You do not seem to fully understand utilitarianism if you consider it consistent with the system to ban willing adults from engaging in sex and having offspring - as such ban would create significant suffering for the persons involved.
4. After the attrocities of the 20th century, several philosophical systems (notably, kantian and neo-kantian ones) hold up much better than utilitarianism, I would say.

[Martim Silva]

Well, one thing I do know is that, if two adults want to have sex with each other, they will have it no matter how banned or taboo it is, and odds are most people won't find out.

This also reminds me of Voltaire's passionate defense of sibling sex, back in the 18th century. And also of his defense of the right of ladies to have sex with their personal maids, which was quite rampant at the time*

(*there was a gradient of punishment by the Law in these last cases. If the Lady was a young virgin, the maid would be sentenced to death. If she was married, the maid would get a long prision sentence. And if she was a widow there would be no penalty, as she'd be helping her mistress to relieve tension.)

So, while I agree that some laws to protect the Family are needed, I realistically cannot see these social bans being effective, unless we put video cameras all over ever household. And even then...

As for sibling incest - apparently, research has shown it is equivalent in harms to parental incest. Though admittedly, they only studied hetero incest.

Not sure. My cousins (brother and sister) had plenty of sex when they were 13-17 [their parents house only had one room for the kids, which they shared], and she grew to be a top banking manager, while he is a now a sucessful oil prospector.

Granted, her marriage only lasted 4 years and he hasn't married his girlfriend of the last 12 years, but I hardly doubt that is abnormal.

[Tamas]

eeeewwwww

[derspiess]

Wow.