Greek Triremes and the Battle of Salamis

[PRC]

Just a "this moment in history" post.

Here is an image of a reproduction Greek Trireme, the Olympias, a commissioned ship in the Greek navy:



According to its Wiki page (insert all the normal objections to wikipedia here) this reproduction ship was built in 1985 to 1987 and has a crew of 170.  She achieved a speed of 9 knots and could execute a 180 degree turn in one minute in two and a half ship lengths.  These match what ancient sources have said of the trireme's capabilities. 

September is also the month that the Battle of Salamis occurred, in 480 BC.  As everyone here knows this battle was fought between the Greeks and the Persians.  Herodotus (insert all the normal objections to Herodotus here) stated that there were originally over 1,200 of these triremes on the Persian side at Salamis.  Aeschylus, a Greek who fought at Salamis said the Greek fleet consisted of 310 triremes.   The Greeks overcame these desperate odds and carried the day.

Some modern historians, such as Victor Davis Hanson, have argued that had the Persians won at Salamis it would have stifled Western civilization as we know it as so much of modern Western civilization has its roots in ancient Greece.  In the aftermath of the battle the Persians could no longer maintain control over areas such as Ionia and Macedon so who knows, if the Persians had kept control of Macedon we may not have seen the rise of Alexander a century plus after this event and the spread of Hellenism would not have been as great.  It's all speculation of course but would this event have affected the rise of Rome and the legions eventually marching out over Greece and Asia with much the same result for Western civilization? 

Regardless of the outcome of the battle and it's alt-history speculation, Salamis remains one of the largest naval battles ever fought to this day.

[MadImmortalMan]

I'd say Hanson is only half right. I think western civ needed the rising and falling of great powers in order to develop. Maybe a Greater Persian Empire extending into Europe would have brought about the dark ages sooner that the fall of Rome did, but there's nothing to suggest that Rome would not have risen too. Eventually, they needed to both fall so that civilization could continue.


The main difference between Persia and Rome was that while Persia was a repressive plunder state (just like Rome), the Romans also made local infrastructure investments and spread the means for people to trade with each other in a common language and things like that. Rome put down a foundation that then enabled the later decentralized crucible of Europe to take off in all directions and try lots of things out. Persia would have just enslaved everyone and stopped nearly all economic progress. And so Persia would not have survived nearly as long as Rome did. It would have built no cohesion. The Byzantines tried to run a centralized state on top of the Roman foundation and failed because they began using a more locked down terrible economic model. They had the benefit of having been Rome and still failed. Persia would not have had Rome's past to build upon and would surely collapse faster than Byzantium did.

So maybe Persia comes along and rules Greece and maybe up to the Danube or something in the classical age and Rome comes along anyway. I don't think that would have kept the Greek writers and philosophers from doing their thing. So maybe the Greek influence on Rome would have still been a factor.

Anyway I guess I'm saying a Persian slave state cannot have ruled long in Europe, so I'm not really sure it would have prevented all the things that happened later.

[Admiral Yi]

Persia didn't have the concept of the rule of law.

[grumbler]

Persia was not a slave state and, in fact, allowed far more local autonomy than Rome or the Hellenistic states did.  It was, however, a far more ephemeral state than Rome or the Hellenistic states.  In essence, Archaemenid Persia was still the old "rule-by-the-strongest" style of state, without the legitimizing elements of a major state religion or elections or cultural superiority complex.  I agree with MIM that it wouldn't have been a long-term player in Europe (and probably not in Asia) no matter what happened at Salamis.

[The Brain]

The Persians had ninjas and war rhinos. Of course it would have been better if they had ruled Europe.

[DGuller]

Which salami won?

[Brezel]

The Greek one, of chourico.