Mass murder’ reported off Malta, 500 drowned by human traffickers

[Martinus]

News! Human traffickers are scum. Film at 11.

True, but I don't see any evidence these were human traffickers.  They seemed to be illegal-immigrant smugglers who were scum.

If there is a difference between those two terms it escapes me what it is.

Human traffickers are essentially slave traders. Illegal immigrant smugglers smuggle illegal immigrants. 

[derspiess]

Illegal immigrants aren't human?

[Martinus]

Illegal immigrants aren't human?

The difference is that between Bobba Fett and Han Solo. Happy now?

[grumbler]

I don't know what g is thinking of but for me human trafficking conjurers up people who are being forcibly moved. The latter are like coyotes.

Exactly.  Every definition of human trafficker I have seen includes the idea that those being trafficked are being trafficked involuntarily or duplicitously, in order to be exploited at the far end.  If just moving people illegally makes you a human trafficker, then every unlicensed cab driver is a human trafficker.

[The Brain]

Illegal immigrants aren't human?

The difference is that between Bobba Fett and Han Solo. Happy now?

Han Solo didn't murder hundreds of passengers. Maybe off camera, granted.

[Barrister]

I don't know what g is thinking of but for me human trafficking conjurers up people who are being forcibly moved. The latter are like coyotes.

Exactly.  Every definition of human trafficker I have seen includes the idea that those being trafficked are being trafficked involuntarily or duplicitously, in order to be exploited at the far end.  If just moving people illegally makes you a human trafficker, then every unlicensed cab driver is a human trafficker.

Except that every time I've ever heard instances of criminals "moving people illegally" they do wind up getting exploited on the other end, typically in order to pay off their debt to the traffickers.

[Jacob]

Except that every time I've ever heard instances of criminals "moving people illegally" they do wind up getting exploited on the other end, typically in order to pay off their debt to the traffickers.

I have heard instances where it is not the case, even where the smugglers have been terrible and/ or dishonest people.

Through some Irish friends (there are lots of Irish in Vancouver right now) we met an Chinese-Irish girl who's working here; born in Ireland, to Chinese (initially illegal) immigrants.

Basically, her parents paid to get on a boat organized by illegal-immigrant-smugglers trying to reach New York. Instead the boat sailed to Dublin where they were told "this is New York, good luck." It took them a while to realize they were in fact not in America at all, not speaking any English and having no idea what New York was supposed to be like. Eventually they settled in Dublin, since they were there.

I've known a few other people who've illegally immigrated, and though some of them have unpleasant stories, none of them involved debt slavery.

Though I'm sure the debt slavery scenario happens more than enough, I don't think it's accurate to assume that it is always the case.

[Barrister]

Except that every time I've ever heard instances of criminals "moving people illegally" they do wind up getting exploited on the other end, typically in order to pay off their debt to the traffickers.

I have heard instances where it is not the case, even where the smugglers have been terrible and/ or dishonest people.

Through some Irish friends (there are lots of Irish in Vancouver right now) we met an Chinese-Irish girl who's working here; born in Ireland, to Chinese (initially illegal) immigrants.

Basically, her parents paid to get on a boat organized by illegal-immigrant-smugglers trying to reach New York. Instead the boat sailed to Dublin where they were told "this is New York, good luck." It took them a while to realize they were in fact not in America at all, not speaking any English and having no idea what New York was supposed to be like. Eventually they settled in Dublin, since they were there.

I've known a few other people who've illegally immigrated, and though some of them have unpleasant stories, none of them involved debt slavery.

Though I'm sure the debt slavery scenario happens more than enough, I don't think it's accurate to assume that it is always the case.

Being dumped on a different continent than where you expected isn't exploitation?

[The Brain]

The US told that guy a while back "this is Canada, good luck!" when he was in fact in Syria. I don't think he was exploited.

[Jacob]

Being dumped on a different continent than where you expected isn't exploitation?

You were talking about debt slavery. If you lump any kind of scamming or unethical behaviour in as "exploitation" then yeah sure, many if not most illegal immigrant smugglers exploit the people they move.

However the distinction was made between human traffickers who move people against their will and continually exploit them through debt and sex slavery on one hand, and people who make money from getting illegal immigrants into countries where they want to go.

Conflating the two is lazy at best, and doing so through the device of equating shaking someone down for some more money or dropping them off in the wrong place with continually exploiting someone's labour at a destination of your choosing even more so.

No one made the claim that illegal immigrant smugglers don't exploit the people they move. Instead a distinction was made between people who enslave people and continually move them around for financial gain, and people who facilitate voluntary illegal immigration.

[Barrister]

Of course every situation is different.  And you threw in the word "continual" which I never used.

But I objected to trying to distinguish "human traffickers" from "illegal immigrant smugglers".  These people invariably exploit their "clients" in one form or another.  Their business is in moving human beings - you can say they traffic in them.  The relevant definition of traffic is:

a :  import and export trade
b :  the business of bartering or buying and selling
c :  illegal or disreputable usually commercial activity <the drug traffic>

Calling them "illegal immigrant smugglers" gives them a sort of decency that they do not deserve.  They're not innocent businessmen - they're criminals.

[grumbler]

Except that every time I've ever heard instances of criminals "moving people illegally" they do wind up getting exploited on the other end, typically in order to pay off their debt to the traffickers.

Ah.  So your ignorance of the distinction is due to an ignorance of the cases.  Fair enough.  In hundreds of thousands of cases you have never heard about, people have been smuggled into countries without being exploited.  If the only outcome was exploitation, there wouldn't be anyone willing to be smuggled.

[Admiral Yi]

Calling them "illegal immigrant smugglers" gives them a sort of decency that they do not deserve.  They're not innocent businessmen - they're criminals.

Yeah, they're smugglers. 

[Valmy]

Calling them "illegal immigrant smugglers" gives them a sort of decency that they do not deserve.  They're not innocent businessmen - they're criminals.

Illegal and smuggler do not strike me as titles that lend decency.

[Berkut]

But I objected to trying to distinguish "human traffickers" from "illegal immigrant smugglers".

But that is distinction with a very real difference in meaning.

They aren't the same thing at all.