Scottish Independence: Quebec Edition

[viper37]

Nah, mostly just sounds like personal insecurity.

Tell me again why your country seceded from Great Britain?  Did Americans of this time feel insecure?

They were infringing on our rights not to spell "color" with a u

it's a valid reason as any!

[derspiess]

Don't ask me. I wasn't alive then and I have never held that the US had great reasons for leaving.

You're just being influenced by Prince Harry.  King George was a tyrant

[garbon]

Don't ask me. I wasn't alive then and I have never held that the US had great reasons for leaving.

You're just being influenced by Prince Harry.  King George was a tyrant

My point was that viper can't call me out for being hypocritical as I wouldn't have supported that move either.

[Maximus]

Nah, mostly just sounds like personal insecurity.

Tell me again why your country seceded from Great Britain?  Did Americans of this time feel insecure?

It certainly wasn't nationalism.

[derspiess]

I'd have put it all on the line for independence.  And honestly I've become a bit more sympathetic to the Quebecois point of view than I used to be.  I don't quite get the Scottish Independence movement, but if they want to split away let them learn by their own mistakes.

[viper37]

Nah, mostly just sounds like personal insecurity.

Tell me again why your country seceded from Great Britain?  Did Americans of this time feel insecure?

It certainly wasn't nationalism.

really?  Americans did not feel Americans?  They all felt they were the same people as the soldiers of the Empire who recently disembarked in their lands?  They considered themselves loyal subjects of His Majesty and were ready to accept his rule&judgment just as any other British citizen was expected to?  In the preceding years, there were no feeling at all that they were abandonned by Great Britain, left to fend for themselves against the French & Indians?  No feeling that they should decide of their own war policies during the French&Indian Wars?  No resentment against heavy taxation from a Tyrant oversea, Great Britain's legitimate ruler, in the years to come?  No feeling that they were treated differently than other British subjects?

And as the war passed, they still considered themselves British citizens?

[viper37]

And honestly I've become a bit more sympathetic to the Quebecois point of view than I used to be. 

I knew Grallon would win you over to the cause 

[viper37]

If Scotland remains part of UK, a financial drain, as UK corporations based in Scotland move back to England is to be expected. 

Why would that happen? I would think that UK corporations based in Scotland (such as certain banks and pension funds) know better than to do something purely out of spite. I was under an impression that the UK is not Russia, so their corporations do not necessary follow the government's bidding.

Scottish banks probably would be English banks after de-union.

being "at the mercy" of London's financial sector who doesn't care about Scotland isn't something that could happen only if Scotland secedes, imho.

If Scotland has no financial sector of its own, it can't have that much influence on UK bank's policies right now.  Other than the occasional Scot working in London, but secession does not affect that issue in the short-medium term horizon.

[Malthus]

After the 1995 referendum, Quebec was crushed by the government.  Money transfer from the Feds were drastically reduced (those that represent our share of taxes we send to the federal gov) as well as equalization payments (the wellfare of Canada), only to be re-established by the current governement a few years ago.  Pro-Ontarian policies were adopted, i.e. subsidizing Ontario's industries while cutting those for Quebec.  Later on, it was more a pro-oil shift that was mostly beneficial to the West.  But I don't consider a high valued currency to be a real problem, we need to adapt, simply, so it's not really the worst policies of all.  Environmental policies however, subsidizing the oil industry instead of leveling the playing field for all, that is detrimental to Quebec.

Heh.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/29/time-for-quebec-to-end-equalization-addiction-montreal-think-tank/

[garbon]

Nah, mostly just sounds like personal insecurity.

Tell me again why your country seceded from Great Britain?  Did Americans of this time feel insecure?

It certainly wasn't nationalism.

really?  Americans did not feel Americans?  They all felt they were the same people as the soldiers of the Empire who recently disembarked in their lands?  They considered themselves loyal subjects of His Majesty and were ready to accept his rule&judgment just as any other British citizen was expected to?  In the preceding years, there were no feeling at all that they were abandonned by Great Britain, left to fend for themselves against the French & Indians?  No feeling that they should decide of their own war policies during the French&Indian Wars?  No resentment against heavy taxation from a Tyrant oversea, Great Britain's legitimate ruler, in the years to come?  No feeling that they were treated differently than other British subjects?

And as the war passed, they still considered themselves British citizens?

As far as I know, the original aims were to get a better shake from Britain, not declare independence because they were Americans.

[Maximus]

really?  Americans did not feel Americans?  They all felt they were the same people as the soldiers of the Empire who recently disembarked in their lands?  They considered themselves loyal subjects of His Majesty and were ready to accept his rule&judgment just as any other British citizen was expected to?  In the preceding years, there were no feeling at all that they were abandonned by Great Britain, left to fend for themselves against the French & Indians?  No feeling that they should decide of their own war policies during the French&Indian Wars?  No resentment against heavy taxation from a Tyrant oversea, Great Britain's legitimate ruler, in the years to come?  No feeling that they were treated differently than other British subjects?

And as the war passed, they still considered themselves British citizens?

Many of those things have nothing to do with nationalism.

AFAIK even after the war many Americans still considered themselves culturally British, especially in New England where the revolution started. The US descended into nationalism later, in the 19th century, but I don't think it was a driving factor in the revolution.

[Grallon]

...


After the 1995 referendum, Quebec was crushed by the government.  Money transfer from the Feds were drastically reduced (those that represent our share of taxes we send to the federal gov) as well as equalization payments (the welfare of Canada), only to be re-established by the current governement a few years ago.  Pro-Ontarian policies were adopted, i.e. subsidizing Ontario's industries while cutting those for Quebec.  Later on, it was more a pro-oil shift that was mostly beneficial to the West.  But I don't consider a high valued currency to be a real problem, we need to adapt, simply, so it's not really the worst policies of all.  Environmental policies however, subsidizing the oil industry instead of leveling the playing field for all, that is detrimental to Quebec.

The detriments have been piling up in recent years - in fact there are less reasons to remain in Canada now then there were in 1995.  But it has to happen for us soon or not ever.  Too many immigrants who don't give a shit about our own culture and history allied with the Anglo minority and that portion of our own people who always shit their pants at the thought of independence will soon have a deadlock on the National Assembly - preventing any move towards separation.  That is quite obviously the strategy of the federasts.

I'd say if it's not done by 2020 then there won't be a point to pursue it anymore.  The next election in 2018 will therefore be crucial.



G.

[Berkut]

One of the largest struggles the colonies had during the war was getting the colonies to act like a nation, rather than a bunch of separate colonies.

The history of the US through the Civil War was one of a constant struggle to actually identify as "Americans" rather than "Virginians" or "Pennsylvanians".

[viper37]

After the 1995 referendum, Quebec was crushed by the government.  Money transfer from the Feds were drastically reduced (those that represent our share of taxes we send to the federal gov) as well as equalization payments (the wellfare of Canada), only to be re-established by the current governement a few years ago.  Pro-Ontarian policies were adopted, i.e. subsidizing Ontario's industries while cutting those for Quebec.  Later on, it was more a pro-oil shift that was mostly beneficial to the West.  But I don't consider a high valued currency to be a real problem, we need to adapt, simply, so it's not really the worst policies of all.  Environmental policies however, subsidizing the oil industry instead of leveling the playing field for all, that is detrimental to Quebec.

Heh.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/29/time-for-quebec-to-end-equalization-addiction-montreal-think-tank/

I support that point of view.  Just as I support ending our dependance to fossil fuels.  And I'm pretty sure you would agree with me on both counts.  However, let's say OPEC decided to end our dependance to fossil fuels for us, but restricting supply.  What do you think would happen to our economy?  Canada's oil production isn't enough for domestic production, and the last time the Federal government tought it a good idea to fix gaz prices for Canadians, that created some resentment in the West.

My point is this has to come from inside Quebec, not be imposed on Quebec.  If you want to end equalization payments, end it for all provinces, so the playing field is even for all.

[The Minsky Moment]

Tell me again why your country seceded from Great Britain?  Did Americans of this time feel insecure?

A combination of real grievances - lack of representation in parliament, suspension of colonial charters, collective punishment in closing the port of Boston -- and hysteria.

I don't think either motivation is applicable to the present Scottish situation.

The US experience also suggests that the mere act of declaring independence and having separate political institutions doesn't undo de facto influence and economic domination from a former mother country.  The US only escaped that domination because it grew much bigger.  Not a realistic option for Scotland.