Scottish Independence

[mongers]

He's also failed to resolve the Arsenal defence midfielder problem. CAMERON OUT

So what did he do right?

He all but gave Salmond the choice of time, battlefield and weapons.

And then in a blind panic promised a devolved Scotland far more than he can probably deliver or what the country deserves as compared to the rest of the UK.

He could hardly have denied Salmond a referendum; the timing could have been different, but I don't think it would have been politically feasible to kick it into the next parliament; the question was a bit of a gamble, granted.

The blind panic we should realise was joined in across the parties, and given the Tory brand in Scotland it's hardly surprising they stayed out of it until the very end.

Was this done optimally? No. But Cameron will not go down as the prime minister who lost the union. And frankly, most people - even in England - believe a new constitutional arrangement has been on the cards for some time.

In part thanks to Gordon Brown and not all Labour votes drifting over to the nationalist clarion call.

There's a big difference between an equitable new constitutional arrangement and the 'bribes' Cameron and other leaders have pledge.

On a side not, and I mean a side note, Labour have to ditch Miliband, he's utterly ineffectual.

[Legbiter]

In part thanks to Gordon Brown...

Aye his Old Time Religion barnstormers halted the No campaign rout. 

[mongers]

In part thanks to Gordon Brown...

Aye his Old Time Religion barnstormers halted the No campaign rout. 

I should also note the Scotish Labour MP Jim Murphy did some, literally Sterling work up and down the country.
He did a lot of public speaking events, a lot of effort and seems like a thoroughly decent politician.

[Martinus]

If there is an English Parliament, I vote to have it in Winchester, for historical reasons. Pragmatically, having it somewhere like Manchester would help get rid of the Westminster / Southern England bias.

Instead, the British Parliament should be in Manchester, while the English one in Westminster. 

[Martinus]

That's how it works.

You barely can find a francophone who voted No in 95, and yet?!

Indeed.  And from what I can read here, now that the panic over a possible Yes has dissipated, I daresay the Brits will renegade on their promises... As I had predicted.  That's how human nature works: you are afraid and if the fear doesn't materialize you want revenge on whoever induced the fear in the first place.  Witness the 'toy parliament' argument above.  The Scots will soon rue their choice.



G.

I don't think the White Hall would dare nuking Edinburgh. A limited nuclear strike on Glasgow, on the other hand, would send the right message.

[Grey Fox]

Am I alone in thiking that the issue here is the fact that England has no england-only assembly making devolution(stupid word) of certain power impossible for a National government to do?

[ulmont]

Am I alone in thiking that the issue here is the fact that England has no england-only assembly making devolution(stupid word) of certain power impossible for a National government to do?

No.  Look up "The West Lothian Question."

[Grey Fox]

That seem to be an easy fix.

[Malthus]

Looks like the Scots have spoken.

Too bad no-one can understand them. 

[Sheilbh]

Salmond's to resign, he'll step down in mid-November.

[Legbiter]

Indeed.  And from what I can read here, now that the panic over a possible Yes has dissipated, I daresay the Brits will renegade on their promises... As I had predicted.  That's how human nature works: you are afraid and if the fear doesn't materialize you want revenge on whoever induced the fear in the first place.  Witness the 'toy parliament' argument above.  The Scots will soon rue their choice.

Well yes, obviously there will have to be clearances with regards to Glasgow, so that the land can be more efficiently used for sheep farming.

[DGuller]

What happens now?  Purge of the disloyal elements?

[Martinus]

Indeed.  And from what I can read here, now that the panic over a possible Yes has dissipated, I daresay the Brits will renegade on their promises... As I had predicted.  That's how human nature works: you are afraid and if the fear doesn't materialize you want revenge on whoever induced the fear in the first place.  Witness the 'toy parliament' argument above.  The Scots will soon rue their choice.

Well yes, obviously there will have to be clearances with regards to Glasgow, so that the land can be more efficiently used for sheep farming.

I liked my idea of a limited nuclear strike better.

[Jacob]

Salmond's to resign, he'll step down in mid-November.

Interesting.

Was that expected? And what are the implications?

[Sheilbh]

There can't possibly be any justification  for Scottish MPs voting on English matters.

But what happens when a party has a majority in England but not in the UK?

An English Parliament is the only possible solution. A grand committee just won't work in teh above situation - A UK Government would not be able to get English legisklation through.

It's very inelegant and means the UK Parliament becomes a shdow of its former self,  but I can't see any alternative.

Same. The other problem with a grand committee is that it'd make any federalisation a bit of a joke. How could you ever have a PM or Chancellor from Scotland or Wales which would relegate those MPs to a lower class. But basically I think the Lib Dems are right we need to move to a federal arrangement with the UK government running pensions, monetary, foreign and defence policy.

I also don't think there's any support for the Labour idea of dismembering England into lots of different regions because there's no sense of those regions necessarily existing (maybe bring back the Heptarchy) and they'd lose the advantage of being able to share the burden if we were to slough off the poorest regions to look after themselves.

Trouble is I don't think, even as part of a constitutional settlement, that English voters would support another layer of government (which the Tories were moaning about already). I think the anti-politics mood is too strong.

And the people who moan all the time about Westminster and English votes for English issues will be the exact same who moan about postcode lotteries

What about one parliament for each of the nine English regions?

There's no real demand for it. I actually think it'd be hugely resisted. England's already an historic entity with attachments and all the rest. It'd be like trying to rationalise US states so they're all of roughly equal population.

Also almost every time they get a referendum on a further but lower level of government - regional assemblies, mayors - English voters reject it

He could hardly have denied Salmond a referendum; the timing could have been different, but I don't think it would have been politically feasible to kick it into the next parliament; the question was a bit of a gamble, granted.

The blind panic we should realise was joined in across the parties, and given the Tory brand in Scotland it's hardly surprising they stayed out of it until the very end.

Was this done optimally? No. But Cameron will not go down as the prime minister who lost the union. And frankly, most people - even in England - believe a new constitutional arrangement has been on the cards for some time.

All fair. But he put the pressure on Salmond to set the date and said that the options were independence or status quo, precisely to avoid further devolution. As it turns out he's ended up with devomax. I think he fucked it up from the start to be honest.

Also I get the point about him staying out of Scotland but I always thought that was wrong because ultimately he's the Prime Minister and he's also a sort of paragon of a certain sort of Englishman. He should've been making Scotland feel loved and wanted not irrelevant and ignored while they were deciding whether or not to stay. I've said before but until that poll it felt like most people in England and especially the politicians and media in Westminster didn't really care one way or the other.

Indeed.  And from what I can read here, now that the panic over a possible Yes has dissipated, I daresay the Brits will renegade on their promises... As I had predicted.  That's how human nature works: you are afraid and if the fear doesn't materialize you want revenge on whoever induced the fear in the first place.  Witness the 'toy parliament' argument above.  The Scots will soon rue their choice.

It could happen that the unionists won the war but lose the peace, but I think it's very unlikely. I think it's all open now and we'll definitely see some change. I mean Lord Forsyth who was Thatcher's party chairman and Major's Scottish Secretary and the arch-opponent of devolution for twenty years was last night calling for really thorough going devolution.

I think the party most in trouble here are Labour.

In part thanks to Gordon Brown and not all Labour votes drifting over to the nationalist clarion call.

There's something to that. I hope this doesn't get credited to Cameron having another late night cramming session to pass the exam, which is his normal narrative, because that really does down the contribution of people like Brown, Jim Murphy and Ruth Davidson who've been outstanding.