Scottish Independence

[Martinus]

Scotland and England will continue to exist, with free movement of people and capital and goods across the border.

Sure about that?

I'm actually quite sure this will not be the case.

Assuming Scotland wants to (re)join the EU, and assuming the UK leaves the EU, and assuming the anti-CEE-immigration sentiments continue to be as strong as they are now in the UK, I find it highly unlikely that the EU would let Scotland operate a free movement border with the UK if the UK keeps sending citizens of other EU member states away.

Likewise, if the non-EU UK wants to keep the Eastern Euros out, I find it unlikely they would just open borders indiscriminately to Scotland if the latter is part of free movement zone/Schengen.

[Duque de Bragança]

We will continue to speak a common language

Well all right then, the respective dialects will continue to drift apart.

[Warspite]

So basically, three assumptions in chain may mean that Scots and English can't move across the border? 

[Tamas]

You guys take this awfully lightly. 300 years old country destroyed (yes, destroyed) because people dislike the "bedroom tax"

Also, if based on this, City of London would decide that they'd rather suffocate in their piles of cash instead of financing the rest of the UK's existence and opted for independence or some sort of city state status, would that be also fine to decide on a 50% vote? Where does this thing stop?

If it got to the point where Londoners had developed their own governing institutions, political boundaries and such a strong identity to the point where they felt it necessary to dissolve their bonds with the rest of England, then yes I don't see why not.

I think - no matter the outcome - that this is a testament to British character and democracy. It's how it's supposed to work.

Sure but then I also see it as a testament that the UK failed at establishing a solid British identity. I guess that's also a testament to British character but not in a good vein.

Scotland and England will continue to exist, with free movement of people and capital and goods across the border. In that sense, there will be little reason for British identity to not exist. We will continue to speak a common language, share a common intellectual heritage, and hold broadly common political views.

I am not seeing how this vote is not about Scotts dropping the British identity.

And I am afraid you are overly optimistic about the divide a yes vote would create. there are so many topics and so much money (and therefore such a big impact on both country's future) to be decided on, that I think it is extremely unlikely to get through the divorce with English-Scottish relations intact.

[Grey Fox]

You guys take this awfully lightly. 300 years old country destroyed (yes, destroyed) because people dislike the "bedroom tax"

Also, if based on this, City of London would decide that they'd rather suffocate in their piles of cash instead of financing the rest of the UK's existence and opted for independence or some sort of city state status, would that be also fine to decide on a 50% vote? Where does this thing stop?

Countries come & go.

You will still enjoy the freedom of London when Scotland is an independant country.

That is actually highly uncertain. With Scotland being much more pro-EU than the rest of Britain, with Scotland gone, it is quite likely that the UK will vote to leave the EU in the referendum planned for 2016 (or was it 2017). Since Tamas's stay in London is based on the EU treaty's free movement of workers (something that is quite resented in Britain, especially when it comes to CEE migrants), it is quite possible that he will be told to leave once the UK leaves the EU.

He might have to go live in Scotland then.

[Martinus]

So basically, three assumptions in chain may mean that Scots and English can't move across the border? 

These are all fairly likely assumptions.

[Warspite]

I am not seeing how this vote is not about Scotts dropping the British identity.

And I am afraid you are overly optimistic about the divide a yes vote would create. there are so many topics and so much money (and therefore such a big impact on both country's future) to be decided on, that I think it is extremely unlikely to get through the divorce with English-Scottish relations intact.

Identities overlap. A lot of Scots don't see themselves as British. A lot of Scots never saw themselves as British. Same with the English. But plenty of Scots will keep seeing themselves as British. Trans-state identities are not unprecedented.

I don't think I am overly optimistic; I actually work in the London world of policy and government so have a pretty decent feel for things. Yes, there will be a lot of complicated issues to unravel, but so what? No one stands to benefit from screwing the other over. This isn't Eastern Europe.

[Martinus]

This isn't Eastern Europe.

Heh, what a shitty ad hom. Especially coming from a half-Croat. At least Poles and Hungarians did not murder each other within the last generation.

[Barrister]

This isn't Eastern Europe.

Heh, how shitty. Especially coming from a half-Croat. At least Poles and Hungarians did not murder each other within the last generation.

The fact there is a couple of countries in between might also have something to do with that.  It would be like me crowing about how good Mexican-Canadian relations are.

[Martinus]

This isn't Eastern Europe.

Heh, how shitty. Especially coming from a half-Croat. At least Poles and Hungarians did not murder each other within the last generation.

The fact there is a couple of countries in between might also have something to do with that.  It would be like me crowing about how good Mexican-Canadian relations are.

Well, we didn't murder our neighbours either.

[Tamas]

I am not seeing how this vote is not about Scotts dropping the British identity.

And I am afraid you are overly optimistic about the divide a yes vote would create. there are so many topics and so much money (and therefore such a big impact on both country's future) to be decided on, that I think it is extremely unlikely to get through the divorce with English-Scottish relations intact.

Identities overlap. A lot of Scots don't see themselves as British. A lot of Scots never saw themselves as British. Same with the English. But plenty of Scots will keep seeing themselves as British. Trans-state identities are not unprecedented.

I don't think I am overly optimistic; I actually work in the London world of policy and government so have a pretty decent feel for things. Yes, there will be a lot of complicated issues to unravel, but so what? No one stands to benefit from screwing the other over. This isn't Eastern Europe.

I don't want to pretend I know better than you or the natives. But when one side of the table started this whole shitstorm precisely because they felt they are not getting a good deal out of sharing stuff with the English, I would say that any kind of peaceful divorce would mean the London government bending down for the soap. Which will (I hope) not look that good for reelection chances.

[Warspite]

So basically, three assumptions in chain may mean that Scots and English can't move across the border? 

These are all fairly likely assumptions.

Scots rejoining the EU, yes.

The UK leaving the EU is a pretty huge assumption contingent on the Tories winning a parliamentary majority, potentially after just losing the UK, while also failing to get any sort of compromise renegotiation with the EU, and after all that assuming that the UK In campaign, when mobilised, does not sway voters the other way.

Anti-CEE immigrant sentiments are strong now in certain parts of the country, but growth and rising incomes may also erode this. Consider also that no political party has fought an election on immigration and won. And again, it's silly to assume the most vocal faction will carry the day when their opponents have not yet mobilised their campaign.

[Duque de Bragança]

This isn't Eastern Europe.

Heh, what a shitty ad hom. Especially coming from a half-Croat. At least Poles and Hungarians did not murder each other within the last generation.

Well, a lack of common border did help.

[Martinus]

The UK leaving the EU is a pretty huge assumption contingent on the Tories winning a parliamentary majority, potentially after just losing the UK, while also failing to get any sort of compromise renegotiation with the EU, and after all that assuming that the UK In campaign, when mobilised, does not sway voters the other way.

Even if Tories lose the next election, they are like hell not going to lose it to labour or lib dems. They may lose to UKiP though.

Anti-CEE immigrant sentiments are strong now in certain parts of the country, but growth and rising incomes may also erode this. Consider also that no political party has fought an election on immigration and won. And again, it's silly to assume the most vocal faction will carry the day when their opponents have not yet mobilised their campaign.

Again, mainly because Scotland voted predominantly labour. This is going to change now.

[Warspite]

This isn't Eastern Europe.

Heh, what a shitty ad hom. Especially coming from a half-Croat. At least Poles and Hungarians did not murder each other within the last generation.

It's precisely because I'm half-Croat that I can see how squalid the identity struggles in Eastern Europe are. And have you not been following Ukraine?

I am very happy I live in a country in which the unionists and separatists can come to agreement as to how to potentially dismantle the country without the need to party congress walkouts, ethnic pogroms, hateful broadcast propaganda, and insurgency. Elements I might add which are not purely limited to the former Yugoslavia.