The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[LaCroix]

Does double jeopardy apply if DA was deliberately incompetent?  There wasn't really any jeopardy there the first time, was there?

you might be onto something there with your theory that russians are prone to conspiracy theories. 

[Barrister]

I think just like a citizen-elected school board oversees school districts we should have similar boards overseeing police departments, that have final say over disciplinary issues and etc. We also should end elections for prosecutors and judges--it's a true blight on our system of law.

Elected judges and prosecutors is a monstrosity.  I've just given up arguing about it.

But then funny you then call for elected police boards.  Sounds like that'd be just as subject to regulatory capture as elected judges and prosecutors.  In any event we have a non-elected Police Commission, and it's fairly unexciting in terms of its oversite of the police.

[Valmy]

@habbaku: prosecution screwed up. that's all there is to that story.

Well besides the fact that law and order are suffering a nationwide crisis that amplifies every month with potentially destabilizing effects for the entire country. But besides that nothing at all more to the story. Nope. Nothing to worry about. These things happen.

[Valmy]

@dps: I considered training, but more in the military context. I just don't know enough about available training procedures that could make a difference without turning cops into soldiers.

I don't see why giving people police training makes them soldiers. Giving electricians electrician training doesn't turn them into plumbers.

[Malthus]

@malthus: OVB handled the response. I don't think there's much more for me to add. if we want proportional black deaths, the problems facing the black communities need to be fixed. that's a whole other discussion that doesn't really involve police departments, IMO.

So you agree with this OvB statement?

1) Police have a racist predisposition to viewing blacks as more dangerous and treat them as so, even when it isn't justified. [A fix for this would be to get police to respond more to the situation, not the skin color of the person.]

That strikes me as a discussion that involves police departments ... 

[Grey Fox]

@dps: I considered training, but more in the military context. I just don't know enough about available training procedures that could make a difference without turning cops into soldiers.

I don't see why giving people police training makes them soldiers. Giving electricians electrician training doesn't turn them into plumbers.

That's not what he said.

[Valmy]

That's not what he said.

I mean you want training in de-escalation and crisis management. I don't see why soldiers would get that kind of training unless they are, you know, doing police work.

[LaCroix]

Well besides the fact that law and order are suffering a nationwide crisis that amplifies every month with potentially destabilizing effects for the entire country. But besides that nothing at all more to the story. Nope. Nothing to worry about. These things happen.

what crisis? prosecution screws up every now and then. it's happened since the beginning of our legal system, and it will continue to happen. prior to filing criminal charges, the prosecution probably felt the available evidence made a better case for involuntary manslaughter. later, a good defense attorney destroys that argument. these things happen. yet, because a cop got off ... it evidences a current law and order "nationwide crisis"?

[Grey Fox]

That's not what he said.

I mean you want training in de-escalation and crisis management. I don't see why soldiers would get that kind of training unless they are, you know, doing police work.

They need better engagement rules.

[Berkut]

Well besides the fact that law and order are suffering a nationwide crisis that amplifies every month with potentially destabilizing effects for the entire country. But besides that nothing at all more to the story. Nope. Nothing to worry about. These things happen.

what crisis? prosecution screws up every now and then. it's happened since the beginning of our legal system, and it will continue to happen. prior to filing criminal charges, the prosecution probably felt the available evidence made a better case for involuntary manslaughter. later, a good defense attorney destroys that argument. these things happen. yet, because a cop got off ... it evidences a current law and order "nationwide crisis"?

It isn't some singular case where a cop got off. Cops *always* get off - they are almost never, EVER prosecuted for killing people.

The only thing that is an outlier about this case is that it actually WAS prosecuted. And even at that, apparently it was TOO CLEAR that they committed murder to convict.

If you cannot see how this story resonates across the entire larger issue, you are just being willfully obtuse.

[The Brain]

I think blacks just get hassled a lot more than whites, even ones who are doing nothing to justify it.

Years ago I committed a classic bureaucratic fuck up. My driver's license had expired, and I missed the 30 day window to renew it. At the same time, my vehicle registration had expired (in the U.S. you typically have to "register" your car with the State and get it renewed every 1-3 years, and pay a set of revenue-generating fees and sometimes personal property taxes depending on state), and while I was insured I had forgotten to put my new car insurance card in my glove box.

I get pulled over for the dead tags. Cop comes up and talks to me, and I basically have none of my paperwork in order. No valid insurance card, expired driver's license, expired registration. I tell him that I do have insurance, I just don't have the new card. He basically just tells me to be sure to get my registration and driver's license renewed (verbal warning), and took me at my word on the car insurance.

As a strict matter of law, if he couldn't verify I had insurance he was supposed to take possession of the car and impound it. I've heard horror stories of people in the same situation where the cop agrees to wait while they run and print off an insurance card at the library or something, but sometimes they get their cars impounded. Now a days they have digital cards you can bring up on your phone that most states accept as valid, but this was back before that was a thing.

I have a strong suspicion if I wasn't driving a nice car, wasn't a professionally dressed middle aged white dude, but was a black guy in shabby clothing driving a beater, that scenario would've turned out 100% different. It wouldn't have been "serious", but I'd be looking at lots of fines and fees that I wouldn't have had the money for it if I was poor. Tickets for all the expired shit, fees to get my car out of impound, fees to the towing company for towing it etc.

Were you union at the time?

[LaCroix]

So you agree with this OvB statement?

1) Police have a racist predisposition to viewing blacks as more dangerous and treat them as so, even when it isn't justified. [A fix for this would be to get police to respond more to the situation, not the skin color of the person.]

That strikes me as a discussion that involves police departments ... 

I think there's a difference between systematic (or institutional) racism and natural, individual discrimination. I also suspect the average cop treats rich black people differently than poor black people.

as an institution, I haven't seen enough evidence that police departments are actually racist--they hate black people and intend to keep them down. individual cops discriminate to a degree. I'm sure some discriminate more than others, just like you'd see cops discriminating in any other non-black community. every profession discriminates because people discriminate in general. I'm sure there are isolated cases of actual, extreme "fuck all black people" racism, but I don't think this is the norm.

I'm not really sure how you would "fix" this, so that's why I think a better fix for the overall issue is to focus on it from other angles that actually have solutions available.

[LaCroix]

It isn't some singular case where a cop got off. Cops *always* get off - they are almost never, EVER prosecuted for killing people.

The only thing that is an outlier about this case is that it actually WAS prosecuted. And even at that, apparently it was TOO CLEAR that they committed murder to convict.

If you cannot see how this story resonates across the entire larger issue, you are just being willfully obtuse.

given the uphill battle it takes to convict a cop and assuming most unjustified killings are caused by mistakes, the number of prosecuted cops -- by itself -- doesn't evidence to me a problem in the system. it was dark out, cop saw the victim quickly reach for something, so he shot. ah man, he killed someone. well, understandable--he was in X neighborhood, he could have been killed. yeah, it wasn't his fault. does some "bias" play into this decision? I'm sure to some degree on a natural human level, but not to the degree that there are conspiracies taking place all across the nation to ensure evil cops aren't prosecuted--like what dguller seemed to be saying.

(edit) not to mention a lot of these deaths are probably 1v1 scenarios where the only eyewitness is the cop. sure, police departments investigate the death to make sure it lines up with the officer's report, but they weren't in the room and can't know with certainty what happened. they can guess, but can that guess be proved beyond reasonable doubt? or, maybe there are eyewitnesses, but they're druggies or "scum" whose credibility would be torn apart on cross examination.

[The Brain]

I just assume that all America is like Mississippi Burning.

[derspiess]

Cop Shoots BLM Member

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/off-duty-st-louis-county-officer-fatally-shoots-intruder-at/article_00c6c2bd-d559-5b78-a8f1-e78187dfa2a6.html