The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Razgovory]

Hmm, I thought generation of the 60's civil rights movement did well.

This is historical hindsight. It has polished all asperities of a movement that was similarly divided, messy, conflicted in its goals, full of unsavory people, etc. The kind of discourse you are holding now was similarly held in the 60s: if only they were protesting "properly".

Conversely, the fact that you now ignore the current grassroot movements, and organizations taking place at a local level does not mean they do not exist, and are not pushing for action in a variety of ways which, I would warrant, are escaping your notice.

Clearly, anyone who questions their effectiveness need to check their privilege.  Actually anyone who can't prove they're black should probably avoid discussing the group at all due to intersectionality issues.

[11B4V]

Hmm, I thought generation of the 60's civil rights movement did well.

This is historical hindsight. It has polished all asperities of a movement that was similarly divided, messy, conflicted in its goals, full of unsavory people, etc. The kind of discourse you are holding now was similarly held in the 60s: if only they were protesting "properly".

Conversely, the fact that you now ignore the current grassroot movements, and organizations taking place at a local level does not mean they do not exist, and are not pushing for action in a variety of ways which, I would warrant, are escaping your notice.

Missed it. I think they can be more effective than they currently are. I am ignoring?? Ignoring who? Or are you talking in general about the US?

[11B4V]

Dude, what the fuck is there to GET?  This isn't about voting rights, or additional funding for school systems, or better access to public transportation;  this is about law enforcement officers willfully and intentionally not following ESTABLISHED POLICIES, PROCEDURES, TRAINING AND CODES OF CONDUCT in the unnecessary killing of unarmed individuals, of whom a disproportionate number are minorities and a criminal justice system that rarely charges these officers, let alone send them to jail.

You fucking know this. Fuck. You know these cops are doing it wrong.  But it's the community that has to "go and get it" or shut the fuck up about it?  Really?

Fucking asshole.

And where to do get off saying I defend those cops? That was not said anywhere. I even pointed out on the BR and Min. Shootings what I thought.  You got to be kidding me.

Hey you're the one wanting some 20 and 30 somethings to solve issues that countless generations of Americans have been unable/unwilling to fix.

I was under the impression that they wanted to solve these issues, after all, they are part of the movement.  Just to be clear, what issues are we talking about?  I can count fairly high, so I'm a little unsure when you throw in the word "countless".

Hmm, I thought generation of the 60's civil rights movement did well. Recently the LGbt movement folks are doing well. I'm sure there other example.

If you want it, go get it. Just don't flap about it.

Go get it was in response to countless generations unwilling to fix it comment.

As a whole that was in general on any issue. You are not going to get noticed unless you get the politicians to. Hit them where it hurts.

Not the BLM, who could be more effective. They are out there and they need to get better organized.

Asshole.

[MadBurgerMaker]

11B, looks like the initial reports of an SKS were wrong.  Saiga AK pattern instead.

[11B4V]

11B, looks like the initial reports of an SKS were wrong.  Saiga AK pattern instead.

Yip that is no SKS.

[jimmy olsen]

Not buying it and calling BS. What's the per capita results buy population numbers and ethnic groups. IOW whats the total population numbers of white and black and the percentage of police shooting deaths for each. I think you will find blacks are killed at a higher percentage.

24.1% of the killed are black. That's very close to twice their percentage of the population.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Indeed.

I cannot really come up with a objective and reasoned reason to object to the BLM reason beyond simple racism.

"Please don't shoot us so fucking much" seems like a pretty uncontroversial position.

To be honest the black community is both a victim and perpetrator of the problems that have caused their prevalent, historical, systemic underachievement. Which is pretty similar to every other once-oppressed minority anywhere in the world. I think if BLM feels it has to make claims like "every white person is an oppressor", they'll never get mainstream support. If they don't want it, fine.

There are some seriously pernicious cultural norms in the worst black neighborhoods in America that aren't going away without some internal soul searching, and it's interesting there's no major black political movement aimed at that.

[Ed Anger]

11B, looks like the initial reports of an SKS were wrong.  Saiga AK pattern instead.

Yip that is no SKS.

Nigga has a better AK than mine. 

[OttoVonBismarck]

I actually wonder what the death rate was to police shootings 10-15 years ago versus now. It's unfortunate the statistics are of no value since they're based on voluntary reporting, of which only a fraction of departments submit data. But I would actually bet that if we had the real numbers in the past they'd be higher than now, it makes some intrinsic sense that police shootings should map to the amount of crimes in general. Since more crimes means more arrests, and more arrests mean more police-citizen interactions. Since crime is down historically speaking, I suspect there were probably more shootings in the past than now.

I also find it interesting no one wants to ever report on "justified" versus "unjustified" homicide. It's hard for me to find much fault with "white society" for blacks committing violent crimes and being shot to death to stop them.

[jimmy olsen]

I actually wonder what the death rate was to police shootings 10-15 years ago versus now. It's unfortunate the statistics are of no value since they're based on voluntary reporting, of which only a fraction of departments submit data. But I would actually bet that if we had the real numbers in the past they'd be higher than now, it makes some intrinsic sense that police shootings should map to the amount of crimes in general. Since more crimes means more arrests, and more arrests mean more police-citizen interactions. Since crime is down historically speaking, I suspect there were probably more shootings in the past than now.

Likely true, but with cell phone cams now and the proliferation of CCTV, we can all see these shootings now, and if a picture is worth a thousand words, then a video is worth a million.

[Admiral Yi]

I think if BLM feels it has to make claims like "every white person is an oppressor", they'll never get mainstream support. If they don't want it, fine.

At which point the question for us non-blacks is do we think what's happening is wrong and do we want it to change, regardless of whether black folks are being dickheads.  And I think the answer has to be yes.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I think if BLM feels it has to make claims like "every white person is an oppressor", they'll never get mainstream support. If they don't want it, fine.

At which point the question for us non-blacks is do we think what's happening is wrong and do we want it to change, regardless of whether black folks are being dickheads.  And I think the answer has to be yes.

Some things are wrong, yes. I do think cops today focus way too much on "getting home" to the detriment of anything else. Our resident angry law enforcement types have essentially said as much. But I don't think white America can fix black America. That's actually an arrogant position, but it's essentially what BLM says. By blaming white America for all their ills that, logically, suggests we could wave a magic wand and fix them all if only we weren't so white and evil. But I don't believe that to be the case.

Old Asian dudes are honorary white guys in this discussion, btw.

[Razgovory]

Old Asian dudes are honorary white guys in this discussion, btw.

This seemed to be the consensus at the Fergusson riots.

[Admiral Yi]

Some things are wrong, yes. I do think cops today focus way too much on "getting home" to the detriment of anything else. Our resident angry law enforcement types have essentially said as much. But I don't think white America can fix black America. That's actually an arrogant position, but it's essentially what BLM says. By blaming white America for all their ills that, logically, suggests we could wave a magic wand and fix them all if only we weren't so white and evil. But I don't believe that to be the case.

Old Asian dudes are honorary white guys in this discussion, btw.

(Just like in South Africa.)

Sounds to me you're saying BLM is taking themselves out of the debate, and my implied agreement was suggested above.  But the real debate (or at least the solveable one) is not how to turn every black American into Dr. Huxtable, it's when and under what situations cops should shoot people. 

[11B4V]

Old Asian dudes are honorary white guys in this discussion, btw.

This seemed to be the consensus at the Fergusson riots.

and the LA riots too.