The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Malthus]

#4 goes out the window when there's a handgun in the waistband.

We took a gun off a 13 year old once (he " had just found it").  Found it on him in the pat down.  Didn't have to shoot him.  Why?  Because he put his hands up when we fucking told him.  But if he had raised his shirt where it was tucked in, contrary to orders, and showed us the butt of a pistol, he would've increased his chances on getting ventilated.

You guys seem to think that an officer's orders, particularly when a gun is involved, are in some way negotiable or open to interpretation, because "he was 12", or because "it was a playground".  It is not a two-way discussion at that point.   It is not a fucking debate.   When you're told to raise your hands, you don't lift the front of your shirt to show a gun.

That's not the issue. The issue is - were these officers really in control of the situation? On the tape, it looks like they were reacting in a panic. A panic there was no need for, one caused by them causing the unnecessary "time compresson", not taking the time necessary to evaluate the situation -  going off half-cocked.

In short, there was no need for the officers to place themselves in a situation where a kid failing to instantly react to orders *requires* an instant deadly response.

[CountDeMoney]

That's not the issue. The issue is - were these officers really in control of the situation? On the tape, it looks like they were reacting in a panic. A panic there was no need for, one caused by them causing the unnecessary "time compresson", not taking the time necessary to evaluate the situation -  going off half-cocked.

In short, there was no need for the officers to place themselves in a situation where a kid failing to instantly react to orders *requires* an instant deadly response.

Yes, that is the issue, because it's certainly not this bullshit about "going off half-cocked" or any of this other bullshit you're talking about.  And the unfortunate fact of life in the big city is that when you pull your sweatshirt up to show a gun that you may or may not be reaching for in front of officers responding to an individual with a gun call, chances are it's going to get you killed regardless of age, and that there's no room for bullshit when there's a gun involved.  Not the rumor of a gun, not the myth of a gun, but an actual gun in an actual waistband.  But you guys don't get it, and you won't get it. 

[Malthus]

That's not the issue. The issue is - were these officers really in control of the situation? On the tape, it looks like they were reacting in a panic. A panic there was no need for, one caused by them causing the unnecessary "time compresson", not taking the time necessary to evaluate the situation -  going off half-cocked.

In short, there was no need for the officers to place themselves in a situation where a kid failing to instantly react to orders *requires* an instant deadly response.

Yes, that is the issue, because it's certainly not this bullshit about "going off half-cocked" or any of this other bullshit you're talking about.  And the unfortunate fact of life in the big city is that when you pull your sweatshirt up to show a gun that you may or may not be reaching for in front of officers responding to an individual with a gun call, chances are it's going to get you killed regardless of age, and that there's no room for bullshit when there's a gun involved.  Not the rumor of a gun, not the myth of a gun, but an actual gun in an actual waistband.  But you guys don't get it, and you won't get it.

I can't see the author of the artice quoted "getting it" either.

"You know all that stuff I was saying about keeping control over the situation and over yourself, not imposing unnecesary time compression, and all that? Well, know what? When you think a gun is involved, just forget about all that shit" 

[CountDeMoney]

The situation was under control once the individual with the gun in the waistband was down.

I'd ask 11Bravo to chime in on this, but even he knows trying to communicate with you pretentious judgmental assholes is useless.

[crazy canuck]

#4 goes out the window when there's a handgun in the waistband.

Only because the police got out of their vehicle less than 1 metre away....

ie the cops caused the time compression

Doesn't matter if it's 1 METER or 1 mile away: lifting your sweatshirt to show a gun in your waistband can get you killed, regardless of the mileage.

Really, if a cop was standing several hundred YARDS away and saw someone lift their shirt they would immediately shoot? 

[Grey Fox]

#4 goes out the window when there's a handgun in the waistband.

Only because the police got out of their vehicle less than 1 metre away....

ie the cops caused the time compression

Doesn't matter if it's 1 METER or 1 mile away: lifting your sweatshirt to show a gun in your waistband can get you killed, regardless of the mileage.

Really, if a cop was standing several hundred YARDS away and saw someone lift their shirt they would immediately shoot?

Well, yes. Cops are scared, trigger happy & power tripping assholes.

[CountDeMoney]

Really, if a cop was standing several hundred YARDS away and saw someone lift their shirt they would immediately shoot?

Makes as much sense as your ZOMG THEY WUZ TOO CLOSE nonsense.

[CountDeMoney]

Well, yes. Cops are scared, trigger happy & power tripping assholes.

Another smug Canadian.  By all means, we need more.

[Jacob]

Another smug Canadian.  By all means, we need more.

Hey, what's up?

[11B4V]

The situation was under control once the individual with the gun in the waistband was down.

I'd ask 11Bravo to chime in on this, but even he knows trying to communicate with you pretentious judgmental assholes is useless.

It's a rabbit hole here. Been watching and can see your point exactly.

there's no room for bullshit when there's a gun involved.  Not the rumor of a gun, not the myth of a gun, but an actual gun in an actual waistband.  But you guys don't get it, and you won't get it.

IMO it's because they (CC and crew) possibly think the cops must put themselves in a disadvantage before using deadly force.

One of my officers had a similar incident involving a teenager, limited visibility, and a replica airsoft pistol. I'm leaving for work, but will post the particulars.   

[Malthus]

The situation was under control once the individual with the gun in the waistband was down.

I'd ask 11Bravo to chime in on this, but even he knows trying to communicate with you pretentious judgmental assholes is useless.

It's a rabbit hole here. Been watching and can see your point exactly.

there's no room for bullshit when there's a gun involved.  Not the rumor of a gun, not the myth of a gun, but an actual gun in an actual waistband.  But you guys don't get it, and you won't get it.

IMO it's because they (CC and crew) possibly think the cops must put themselves in a disadvantage before using deadly force.

One of my officers had a similar incident involving a teenager, limited visibility, and a replica airsoft pistol. I'm leaving for work, but will post the particulars.

Not so. How does approaching with caution, clear-headedly analysing the situation, and giving oneself enough time and distance to react put the officers at a disadvantage?

Look at this particular incident - if that kid really had been packing, those officers put *themselves* at a disadvantage by driving right up to him as they did - he could have ventelated them before they made a move.

Again, look at the article posted upthread. Do you disagree with it? If so, why?

[Jacob]

IMO it's because they (CC and crew) possibly think the cops must put themselves in a disadvantage before using deadly force.

I do think there are different standards at play about the relationship between perception of risk and the appropriateness of lethal force.

[Grey Fox]

Well, yes. Cops are scared, trigger happy & power tripping assholes.

Another smug Canadian.  By all means, we need more.

No Justice, No Peace.

[11B4V]

#4 goes out the window when there's a handgun in the waistband.

We took a gun off a 13 year old once (he " had just found it").  Found it on him in the pat down.  Didn't have to shoot him.  Why?  Because he put his hands up when we fucking told him.  But if he had raised his shirt where it was tucked in, contrary to orders, and showed us the butt of a pistol, he would've increased his chances on getting ventilated.

You guys seem to think that an officer's orders, particularly when a gun is involved, are in some way negotiable or open to interpretation, because "he was 12", or because "it was a playground".  It is not a two-way discussion at that point.   It is not a fucking debate.   When you're told to raise your hands, you don't lift the front of your shirt to show a gun.

I didn't see the kid do this (raise hands) in the vid.

[11B4V]

Not so. How does approaching with caution, clear-headedly analysing the situation, and giving oneself enough time and distance to react put the officers at a disadvantage?

How do you know they weren't watching the subject during their whole approach up to him? Most likely they were.

Look at this particular incident - if that kid really had been packing, those officers put *themselves* at a disadvantage by driving right up to him as they did - he could have ventelated them before they made a move.

Not the issue. In that case why didn't the kid put is hands up when told to?

Again, look at the article posted upthread. Do you disagree with it? If so, why?

I did and #3 in utter horseshit. #4 again is not a hard fast rule particularly when a gun is involved. In fact none of those are a hard fast rule even though the author would like cookie cutter people to drink that cool-aid.

If after considering your circumstances, you believe that you cannot safely accomplish all five of the arrest components ((1) verbalization, (2) approaching the subject, (3) going "hands on" with the subject, (4) arrest and control tactics, and (5) handcuffing/searching prior to transport), do not make contact! That does not mean that you never make contact; it just means that you do not force the issue at that moment. Rather, whenever the situation allows follow rules #1 and #2. Keep calm, focus on maintaining situational awareness, manipulate the environment by adapting and thinking outside the box, and call for additional resources so that you can eventually and safely prevail.