The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[crazy canuck]

Here is the description from the Post article:

Tamir eventually sat alone under the gazebo. The video then shows the police car pulling right up to the structure. Loehmann shouted from the car three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car, Tomba said. Loehmann exited the car, and within two seconds, shot Tamir from about 10 feet away.

Police had earlier said two shots were fired by a single officer, and that Tamir had reached into his waistband when Loehmann shouted the commands.

This can't be completely true, looking at the video. The kid never "approached the car". The officers did not have time to shout "three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car" - they basically drive up jump out and shoot him within two seconds. I cannot actually see whether the kid "reached into his waistband" but that one may be true - can't tell.

The only way the police description of events could possibly be true is if they were yelling at the kid as they were driving up.

The fact the police at least realize they should have warned him to put his hands up a number of times before shooting makes me think they are not trained to be hair triggers the way the talking head Otto heard said they were. 

[Malthus]

The only way the police description of events could possibly be true is if they were yelling at the kid as they were driving up.

The fact the police at least realize they should have warned him to put his hands up a number of times before shooting makes me think they are not trained to be hair triggers the way the talking head Otto heard said they were.

Even then, it would not be true.

The impression given by the police statement is that they yelled at the kid 'as he approached the car' - meaning, the kid deliberately ignored the cops, while advancing on the cops. Yelling from the car as the car approached the kid isn't the same.

I'm usually one willing to give cops the benefit of doubt, making split-second decisions. I simply can't on this one.

[crazy canuck]

The only way the police description of events could possibly be true is if they were yelling at the kid as they were driving up.

The fact the police at least realize they should have warned him to put his hands up a number of times before shooting makes me think they are not trained to be hair triggers the way the talking head Otto heard said they were.

Even then, it would not be true.

The impression given by the police statement is that they yelled at the kid 'as he approached the car' - meaning, the kid deliberately ignored the cops, while advancing on the cops. Yelling from the car as the car approached the kid isn't the same.

I'm usually one willing to give cops the benefit of doubt, making split-second decisions. I simply can't on this one.

Yeah, true enough.  Sounds like they are trying to justify after the fact what they know they did wrong.  Its a lot like the Polish guy that was killed at the airport here.  The police version of events made sense up until the video was released...  That was the event that caused our independant investigations office to be created.  It had been recommended for years but when it became clear that the police had botched the investigation public support for an independant office became very strong.

[CountDeMoney]

This can't be completely true, looking at the video. The kid never "approached the car". The officers did not have time to shout "three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car" - they basically drive up jump out and shoot him within two seconds. I cannot actually see whether the kid "reached into his waistband" but that one may be true - can't tell.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/11/26/officials-release-video-names-in-fatal-police-shooting-of-12-year-old-cleveland-boy/?hpid=z5

You see him walking towards the car as it is approaching from 1:30;  he is wearing a gray sweatshirt;  at 1:34, prior to bending forward from the shot, the belly area is no longer gray, because he has pulled his sweatshirt up.

And yes, CC, it's a gun call, he probably was getting yelled at as the car was rolling up and before he got out.  These things are not done in silence.

[crazy canuck]

The problem Seedy, is that the kid is walking in that direction before the car pulls up.  As Malthus said, the police statement makes it sound like the police gave him ample warning which the kid ignored.  That simply didnt happen. 

[Tonitrus]

I dunno, you see the police cruiser roll up (on the grass too, probably would have been wiser to come in a from a little more distance)...and I am presuming the cop who fired came from the passenger side...and the kid is reaching into his pants right as they come up, probably just as he is opening the door.  That leaves him almost no time to avoid getting shot at point blank range if that gun were real.

Very hard to say it's cut and dry wrong.

From the video, it looked to me like a justifiable shooting.  An unfortunate one, but justifiable.

Agree.  I see faults on both sides...in that neither side should have put themselves into that position.  The kid shouldn't have been playing with something that anyone else would think is a real gun...and from how the video looks, the cops shouldn't have rolled up onto the scene in the way they did, putting themselves practically right in the kid's face.

[CountDeMoney]

The problem Seedy, is that the kid is walking in that direction before the car pulls up.  As Malthus said, the police statement makes it sound like the police gave him ample warning which the kid ignored.  That simply didnt happen.

The kid showed a gun in his waistband.  He got shot.  It is unfortunate for the kid and it is unfortunate for the officer that has to live with that. 
The fact that he was 12 and it was a toy are irrelevant to the decision-making process of that officer at that split second.  You do not fuck around with guns.  Don't see why this is such a difficult concept to understand or appreciate, but then again, I do.  Because everybody else fucking knows better.   

But I am through arguing police responses to inner city gun calls with sanctimonious Canadians and a Pinochet-obsessed Brit.  South America.  Kiss my ass.

[crazy canuck]

The problem Seedy, is that the kid is walking in that direction before the car pulls up.  As Malthus said, the police statement makes it sound like the police gave him ample warning which the kid ignored.  That simply didnt happen.

The kid showed a gun in his waistband.  He got shot.  It is unfortunate for the kid and it is unfortunate for the officer that has to live with that. 
The fact that he was 12 and it was a toy are irrelevant to the decision-making process of that officer at that split second.  You do not fuck around with guns.  Don't see why this is such a difficult concept to understand or appreciate, but then again, I do.  Because everybody else fucking knows better.   

But I am through arguing police responses to inner city gun calls with sanctimonious Canadians and a Pinochet-obsessed Brit.  South America.  Kiss my ass.

Lol, of course the only reason the officers only had a split second to react was entirely of their own making....

[CountDeMoney]

Lol, of course the only reason the officers only had a split second to react was entirely of their own making....

Lol, no.

[Razgovory]

I'm having a hard time distinguishing "showed a gun in his waistband" and just walking along.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm having a hard time distinguishing "showed a gun in his waistband" and just walking along.

Lifting up or opening the coat so the gun is visible, presumably.

[crazy canuck]

And most likely trying to show them it was just a toy

[Barrister]

And most likely trying to show them it was just a toy

And you say that based on what exactly?

[DGuller]

"Come on, it's isn't real, guys.  Here, look inside the barrel, see the bits of the orange cap still left?"

[mongers]

The problem Seedy, is that the kid is walking in that direction before the car pulls up.  As Malthus said, the police statement makes it sound like the police gave him ample warning which the kid ignored.  That simply didnt happen.

The kid showed a gun in his waistband.  He got shot.  It is unfortunate for the kid and it is unfortunate for the officer that has to live with that. 
The fact that he was 12 and it was a toy are irrelevant to the decision-making process of that officer at that split second.  You do not fuck around with guns. 
......

How many white guys, legally conceal carrying, get killed a year by cops who misinterpret what they're doing with their clothing/jacket?