The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[alfred russel]

nah, most people don't like indians. i've had friends who seemed A-OK with all the other minorities, except indians. but, what's worse is when non-indians go down to the casino and a fight erupts. or a non-indian beats his indian girlfriend on the reservation. the tribal judicial system cannot prosecute (except, iirc, in three reservations due to some 2010 federal act) non-indians and must rely on state prosecutors. allegedly, the state isn't always perfect about prosecuting incidents against indians (i assume the egregious cases are prosecuted, though).

and, of course, indians are also beat down by the very system they expect to protect them - the reservation. it's a huge mess.

They had a choice. Their ancestors chose to walk across that land bridge out of Eurasia and into the Americas. They need to accept the consequences.

[garbon]

Probably true and you should know, you live up where they are.  But nobody fears them.  They mostly live out in the boonies and other people don't bug them much right?

nah, most people don't like indians. i've had friends who seemed A-OK with all the other minorities, except indians. but, what's worse is when non-indians go down to the casino and a fight erupts. or a non-indian beats his indian girlfriend on the reservation. the tribal judicial system cannot prosecute (except, iirc, in three reservations due to some 2010 federal act) non-indians and must rely on state prosecutors. allegedly, the state isn't always perfect about prosecuting incidents against indians (i assume the egregious cases are prosecuted, though).

and, of course, indians are also beat down by the very system they expect to protect them - the reservation. it's a huge mess.

Maybe that's a Dakota thing. I don't think most people typically have thoughts about Native Americans.

[LaCroix]

Maybe that's a Dakota thing. I don't think most people typically have thoughts about Native Americans.

yeah, i meant up here when i said "most people don't like indians."

[CountDeMoney]

I dunno, plenty of Languishites would blame the Indians for their own lot in life, since they fail to assimilate themselves and refuse to give up their "culture".  Just another variation of the "don't like it, quit!" Languish theme among the social contract ass-wipers.

[LaCroix]

the problem seems to be the reservations' systems of government are fundamentally flawed. i visited one over the summer and discovered how corrupt they can be. the tribal council rules supreme, and the tribal judicial system is not independent. the tribal council can remove a judge arbitrarily.

judge holds a guy in contempt of court -> guy goes to his brother on the tribal council -> tribal council asks the judge to back down -> judge refuses to back down: the judge is removed. the tribal prosecutor said in the eleven years he had worked for the system, he had seen thirteen different judges. and a lot of judges like to start fresh, clean slate for everyone - even the repeat, serious offenders. so, it takes half a year to a year before the judge learns he needs to crack down on the repeat, serious offenders, but then the judge runs off or is sacked. so, the process repeats itself.

added to the mess are tribal judges and attorneys who are allowed to work in the system without having gone to law school, let alone pass the bar. "law-trained" judges can be rare, and judges who have passed the bar can be even rarer. then you have families who dominate most positions of power within the tribe. maybe that family is honest, hardworking, and doing the greater good. or they could be corrupt as sin.

there are tribes who have their shit together, but i think most of the tribes where you see the crime and abject poverty are those whose systems of government are so rotten to the core that no amount of federal funding will fix it.

[CountDeMoney]

there are tribes who have their shit together, but i think most of the tribes where you see the crime and abject poverty are those whose systems of government are so rotten to the core that no amount of federal funding will fix it.

Since the federal funding is squat to begin with, there's nothing to worry about.

[garbon]

I dunno, plenty of Languishites would blame the Indians for their own lot in life, since they fail to assimilate themselves and refuse to give up their "culture".  Just another variation of the "don't like it, quit!" Languish theme among the social contract ass-wipers.

Well, to be honest, as a person who has never had one permanent place of residence, I don't really understand when I've heard Native Americans say things like "I love the reservation" while meanwhile recognizing all of the totally terrible things about it. I have to admit that I'd quit.

[CountDeMoney]

Take pride in your tribe. 

[garbon]

Take pride in your tribe. 

I take pride in my family but we don't all have to live in one place to do so.

[CountDeMoney]

Take pride in your tribe. 

I take pride in my family but we don't all have to live in one place to do so.

Oh sure, take another shot at me living with my parents.  THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER

[garbon]

Take pride in your tribe. 

I take pride in my family but we don't all have to live in one place to do so.

Oh sure, take another shot at me living with my parents.  THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER

I believe that's:

[CountDeMoney]

You're gay, so yes, I'd expect you to miss an Animal House reference for a fucking musical.

[Razgovory]

there are tribes who have their shit together, but i think most of the tribes where you see the crime and abject poverty are those whose systems of government are so rotten to the core that no amount of federal funding will fix it.

Since the federal funding is squat to begin with, there's nothing to worry about.

To be fair, he's right that the reservation thing is a raw deal.  I'm not sure how to fix it.  You could go all Hong Kong just get rid of most government regulations.  That would... change things.  I don't know if it would be better though.  It is an interesting idea.

[garbon]

You're gay, so yes, I'd expect you to miss an Animal House reference for a fucking musical.

One is a famous work of literature and one...well when I watched it a white girl next to me was like yeah show that nigger what is what.

[CountDeMoney]

Even military types are saying, "That's pretty fucked up, man."

Military veterans see deeply flawed police response in Ferguson
By Thomas Gibbons-Neff August 14 at 12:52 PM

Jet-black rifles leveled at unarmed citizens and mine-resistant vehicles once used to patrol the roadways of Iraq and Afghanistan rumbling through small town America. These are scenes playing out in Ferguson, Mo., which has been racked by protests for the last week following the fatal shooting of an unarmed 19-year-old named Michael Brown.

For veterans of the wars that the Ferguson protests so closely resemble, the police response has appeared to be not only heavy-handed but out of step with the most effective ways for both law enforcement and military personnel to respond to demonstrations.

"You see the police are standing online with bulletproof vests and rifles pointed at peoples chests," said Jason Fritz, a former Army officer and an international policing operations analyst. "That's not controlling the crowd, that's intimidating them."

The protests in Ferguson began in earnest just a day after Brown was killed, when a prayer vigil for the slain teen turned into an evening of looting.

Scriven King, a 10-year veteran of the U.S. Air Force's law enforcement component and a SWAT officer, attributed the initial spasm of violence to a lack of leadership and mismanagement of public  perception on the Ferguson Police Department's behalf.

"The first thing that went wrong was when the police showed up with K-9 units," Scriven said. "The dogs played on racist imagery...it played the situation up and [the department] wasn't cognizant of the imagery."

King added that, instead of deescalating the situation on the second day, the police responded with armored vehicles and SWAT officers clad in bulletproof vests and military-grade rifles.

"We went through some pretty bad areas of Afghanistan, but we didn't wear that much gear," said Kyle Dykstra, an Army veteran and former security officer for the State Department. Dykstra specifically pointed out the bulletproof armor the officers were wearing around their shoulders, known as "Deltoid" armor.

"I can't think of a [protest] situation where the use of M4 [rifles] are merited," Fritz said. "I don't see it as a viable tactic in any scenario."

Ferguson police have defended their handling of the protests and said some demonstrators have been trying to "co-opt" peaceful protests. But while the Ferguson and St. Louis county police departments may have made their presence felt in the streets, they have made only limited use of social media.

"They've kept people in an information black hole," King said, mentioning that their decision not to share details about operations more widely has only exacerbated the situation.

"There has not been a dialogue about the tactical situation the officers faced," he said, referring to the fact that there might have been a reason that caused the officers to respond with such heavy equipment. "There could have been threats to the officers, but that information has not been shared to the public."

As the violence continued to escalate over the course of the week, King said, Ferguson police also exacerbated tensions by allowing individual officers to engage with protesters.

"Officers were calling the protesters 'animals,' " King said. "I can't imagine a military unit would do that in any scenario."

King added that if it were a military unit in a similar situation there would be a public affairs officer or civil affairs engagement team that would help bridge the gap between the riot control elements and the general population.

"I would hate to call the Ferguson response a military one," he said. "Because it isn't, it's an aberration."

To be fair to the Ferguson PD:  these Barney Fife amateurs can't handle two kids walking in the street without shooting one of them, they certainly can't be expected to deal with protesters.