The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[The Brain]

Moving controversial statues to museums would seem to satsify both sides, when you're talking about not destroying history. As for public spaces that people cannot choose to ignore not having statues that make people throw up in their mouths seems nice. That being said, it should take more than a flash mob to move statues, the rule of law is actually meaningful and protects people and it is worth defending. Also, there will always be people who hate some statues for all kinds of reasons, it's not enough that someone is deeply offended by a statue for society to decide to remove it.

[garbon]

Moving controversial statues to museums would seem to satsify both sides, when you're talking about not destroying history. As for public spaces that people cannot choose to ignore not having statues that make people throw up in their mouths seems nice. That being said, it should take more than a flash mob to move statues, the rule of law is actually meaningful and protects people and it is worth defending. Also, there will always be people who hate some statues for all kinds of reasons, it's not enough that someone is deeply offended by a statue for society to decide to remove it.

One added difficulty is that many of these statues are ones that people have wanted removed for years. Unfortunately though, there has been little political will to have them removed.

[The Brain]

Moving controversial statues to museums would seem to satsify both sides, when you're talking about not destroying history. As for public spaces that people cannot choose to ignore not having statues that make people throw up in their mouths seems nice. That being said, it should take more than a flash mob to move statues, the rule of law is actually meaningful and protects people and it is worth defending. Also, there will always be people who hate some statues for all kinds of reasons, it's not enough that someone is deeply offended by a statue for society to decide to remove it.

One added difficulty is that many of these statues are ones that people have wanted removed for years. Unfortunately though, there has been little political will to have them removed.

That is unfortunate. In a functioning democracy the will of the people is carried out.

[Gups]

There is still a Léopold II avenue in Paris. OTOH, there is a rue Saint-Just ending in a dead-end (LULZ) parallel to a cemetery. Coincidence? 
No rue Robespierre before Valmy asks.

PS: some communal "association" called Black African Defense League (sic) called for removing Colbert statues. He is responsible for the Black Code, regulating the status of slaves, and is also the spiritual father of dirigisme , popular among French conservatives.

Are Napoleon monuments getting any heat or would that be a sacred cow too far?

Some of the targets in the UK are just ridiculous - e.g. Peel because he created the first police force.

[Sheilbh]

Are Napoleon monuments getting any heat or would that be a sacred cow too far?

Some of the targets in the UK are just ridiculous - e.g. Peel because he created the first police force.

Yep. Or Earl Grey because slaveholders were compensated (and it was an enormous amount) on abolition, but it feels harsh to tear his statue down for abolishing slavery in the wrong way.

Also Gladstone who was the son of a slaveholder, gave a pro-slavery maiden speech (in the 1830s), was pro-Confederacy in the 1860s, but is also someone who has a real arc from a stern unbending Tory, to introducing the secret ballot, legalising unions, universal schooling, fights against landlords, home rule in Ireland and generally being a radical old man in a hurry in the 1890s.

I'm more ambivalent about Baden-Powell, but that's probably because I find the Scouts creepy.

[garbon]

I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

[Valmy]

It is all but impossible to end a forced labor system without compensation in peacetime. Grey did the necessary evil.

[Valmy]

I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

Huge statues kind of suck for museums. I personally think statues in public spaces are probably better as allegories, yeah. Just because using people to represent civic virtues gets tricky. No matter how committed said person was to said virtues they are still people with complications.

Liberty leading the people is probably a better symbol than some actual revolutionary figure leading the people.

[garbon]

I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

Huge statues kind of suck for museums. I personally think statues in public spaces are probably better as allegories, yeah. Just because using people to represent civic virtues gets tricky. No matter how committed said person was to said virtues they are still people with complications.

Liberty leading the people is probably a better symbol than some actual revolutionary figure leading the people.

Yep, agree with all of that. It would also help combat against some of the mythologizing we do to figures in the past (see: the Founding Fathers).

[derspiess]

I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

Wypipo 

[Barrister]

Some of the targets in the UK are just ridiculous - e.g. Peel because he created the first police force.

Though I have some passing knowledge of Robert Peel, I've gone over his wiki page, and he seems almost impeccable even from a modern perspective.  Even on topics that would be frowned upon by today's standards (opposed to Catholic emancipation) - he eventually reversed himself and led the charge in favour of it.

Good grief.

[Valmy]

I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

Wypipo 

Heh. Though sometimes I get a little uncomfortable for how we make MLK the one man civil rights prophet when he was just one cog in a very large machine that comprised thousands of people. I think it creates the false narrative that we need to wait around for some great leader when in reality it was the efforts of thousands over many decades that created the leader and the organization not the other way around, even if there is nothing specifically objectionable about MLK himself (ok there are a few things but nothing like also being responsible for genocide or something).

[garbon]

I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

Wypipo 

I'd be happy to replace some of them with white women.

[Valmy]

I'm not sure I'd be that bothered if we put most of the white men, that we have on literal pedestals, safely in museums.

Wypipo 

I'd be happy to replace some of them with white women.

Robert E Lee's daughters.

[Maximus]

Heh. Though sometimes I get a little uncomfortable for how we make MLK the one man civil rights prophet when he was just one cog in a very large machine that comprised thousands of people. I think it creates the false narrative that we need to wait around for some great leader when in reality it was the efforts of thousands over many decades that created the leader and the organization not the other way around, even if there is nothing specifically objectionable about MLK himself.

I was just thinking today how the current BLM movement doesn't center around any one person like MLK. I personally like that because I hate cults of personality, but I think also objectively that's a positive. It makes the movement more resilient.