The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[The Brain]

As some others have commented, I must say it's nice that we have so intense and lively debates on Languish. We're definitely alive!

So alive, we're ready to shoot ourself in the head.

Not just yet! In Steiner we trust.

[merithyn]

Protecting the store was to prevent the "Well, I was on their side until they started stealing shoes!!" bullshit.

No one here has taken that position.  This  is pretty much a straw man.  Rather we are distinguishing between righteous and unrighteous protestors.

No one here has. There has, however, been a multitude of that on social media platforms.

[Tamas]

If the reactionaries are going to absolutely hammer the looting message, and the police for similar reasons will not really work on stopping it, would it not be beneficial for the protesters to do such demonstrative acts of distancing them from them?

In 1956, when there was literal fighting between the Stalinist regime in Hungary and the revolutionaries, the latter had zero tolerance for looting of non-regime buildings or persons, and yet they managed to win the fight. Heck, they famously had open collection hats/buckets on the streets for donations to help families who lost people in the fighting. Nobody dared touching the cash because the revolutionaries were protecting them.

I understand that looting in reality is a small thing when compared tot he overall number of protesters. But is that a good enough reason to give up the PR battle over it without even trying? I am sorry, but I am fairly certain that a lot of people, if they are made to feel like they need to choose between continued fighting of institutionalised racism or the safety of their persons and property, they will decide they can live with the racism (especially as it mostly won't affect them) but they won't live without the security. Now, again, I understand the premise of this choice is entirely false, but the regime is working very hard to convince them that it is a real one.

[DGuller]

Another win for the debate skills only elite universities can afford.

What's with the sass? You're out of rotten herring or something?

Sass from the sidelines is the inevitable result when peaceful attempts at discussion meet character assassination.

[merithyn]

This really shouldn't be more than a footnote.

Can y'all just get the fuck over the (minimal amount of) looting?

Now it feels like you're virtue signalling

I don't know what you mean by get over the looting.  Pretend it's not happening?  Embrace it like Meri and hope there's more?

WTF.

Where is this narative that Meri "hopes there's more" coming from?

What I said, to be clear, is that I don't blame these people for being angry nor do I condemn them for how they're showing their anger. They have every right to be pissed, and I'm shocked that it took this long for the powder keg to blow.

I don't care that stores are being looted and vandalized only in that I think it's immaterial to what's happening to people of color in this country. Again I'll say, do I wish/hope for it? No, I don't. Do I care that it's happening? I care in that I don't wish anyone to be hurt, but not enough to stress over it when peaceful protesters are being blinded with rubber bullets and smashed with shields and fists.

Commercial America usually does a pretty good job of taking care of itself. POC, on the other hand, usually gets fucked over. So yeah, my sympathies lie there instead.

[Oexmelin]

Sass from the sidelines is the inevitable result when peaceful attempts at discussion meet character assassination.

What character assassination? Who has been assassinated? So far, and except Tamas' outburst, which he acknowledged, I only see Brain sniping at me from the sidelines.

I am angry, yes - for a variety of reasons, some of which are personal, some are in line with my actual belief, and some, because I show up for protests despite the risk. Because it's important. It doesn't mean that I am not afraid. So, people who are snarky, or detached, from the sidelines get my goat. Do I think they are misguided? Yes. Do I think people here are fascists? No (for the most part). 

I engage with you because I think you are arguing in good faith, even if we disagree - and, more crucially perhaps, because you engage back fairly. Not necessarily because I think your arguments are fair, but rather, because you give and take at similar levels. This is not the case with every one on Languish.   

[fromtia]

Can the onion get a Pulitzer prize?

https://www.theonion.com/police-didn-t-spend-millions-on-awesome-tank-just-to-le-1843860163

[DGuller]

Sass from the sidelines is the inevitable result when peaceful attempts at discussion meet character assassination.

What character assassination? Who has been assassinated? So far, and except Tamas' outburst, which he acknowledged, I only see Brain sniping at me from the sidelines.

I am angry, yes - for a variety of reasons, some of which are personal, some are in line with my actual belief, and some, because I show up for protests despite the risk. Because it's important. It doesn't mean that I am not afraid. So, people who are snarky, or detached, from the sidelines get my goat. Do I think they are misguided? Yes. Do I think people here are fascists? No (for the most part). 

I engage with you because I think you are arguing in good faith, even if we disagree - and, more crucially perhaps, because you engage back fairly. Not necessarily because I think your arguments are fair, but rather, because you give and take at similar levels. This is not the case with every one on Languish.

I appreciate that. 

I don't think there has been a lot of character assassination here, certainly not when compared to the dumpster file a week ago in another thread, but I think the implication that talking about looting means you care more about jeans than about black people, or something in that vicinity, is pretty close to being that.  I don't think the position that anarchy in general and looting in particular is tangential to the protests or is counter-productive to the aims of the protests invites these kinds of implications.  I can see why some would choose to not attempt to enter the discussion if that's how the conversation can turn.

[Oexmelin]

I think the implication that talking about looting means you care more about jeans than about black people, or something in that vicinity, is pretty close to being that. (...) I can see why some would choose to not attempt to enter the discussion if that's how the conversation can turn.

Not directly, no. But most beliefs come with a lot of baggage folded into them, that often can be unfolded through stark contrasts. No one here seems to be balking at asking me to justify my beliefs, often with the ulterior motive of "showing me" something they have already considered. They shouldn't balk at the reverse being directed at them. I don't think people assume explicitly that a pair of jeans is worth more than a black life. But I think that taking so much time and energy discussing looting reflects some argumentative preferences that, I suggest, should be examined.

[Malthus]

Which is hilarious since few are as big into identity politics like the alt-right. You would think they would have plenty of empathy for racial and identity based nationalism.

They are nothing if not inconsistent.

I disagree - I think they are totally consistent.

They look at the other and see as in a mirror.

They see power as a zero sum game - that in this world, people are and ought to be divided by ethnicity as it is currently defined, Whites have the power, and if any is given to non-Whites, Whites will of necessity have less. It's merely a power struggle. If non-Whites are ever given power comparable to Whites, they will act just the same as Whites, that is hold onto power with oppression - so they must be fought, violently if necessary.

They live in a social Darwinian world, and aim to be top dog (while fearing they may not be).

[saskganesh]

  Embrace it like Meri and hope there's more?

wow

you should walk that back.

[Barrister]

But I think that taking so much time and energy discussing looting reflects some argumentative preferences that, I suggest, should be examined.

So much time is spent discussing looting because lots of voices online bizarrely want to defend looting as some kind of valid form of protest.

I mean even most black leaders, the BLM movement, and others have condemned looting and rioting even as they continue to passionately denounce police violence.  Joe Biden, for example met with a number of black leaders today and gave a rare public speech.  He said (amongst much else) that looting and rioting must stop.

I would have thought "looting and rioting is bad" would have been one thing we could all agree on, and then move on to other topics.  But here we are.

[Razgovory]

I don't know why everyone is attacking Meri.

[merithyn]

Who here has said that looting and rioting is good?

Anyone?

[Admiral Yi]

wow

you should walk that back.

Yes, you're right.  I embellished.  Takes backs.

It was a reference to Meri's posts about being perfectly fine with businesses with insurance burning down or black people expressing their rage in any way they see fit.