The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Admiral Yi]

But your fellow citizen is not an enemy combatant

Until they are.

[Jacob]

It seems to me that enough people of color have been shot, beaten, tazed, etc. when following police orders to make the "just follow orders" defense a bit weaker...

A non-trivial number of white folks have been shot, beaten, tazed etc as well. There's both a racism problem and a unjustified violence problem.

[Jacob]

But your fellow citizen is not an enemy combatant

Until they are.

... so better strike first, just in case?

[Sheilbh]

Your examples don't fit your thesis. 

We ask firemen to go into burning buildings but we don't demand they act is if there is no risk.  We provide protective gear and oxygen and expect them to use it..  We wouldn't expect a member of the military to walk toward an enemy position unarmed and talk them into surrendering.  We would expect him or her to take measures to safeguard their own security.

No. But we provide them with equipment and with training and ask them to do those roles, at their own personal risk. We can't eliminate that risk and part of the job we're asking them to do acknowledges that they can't and sometimes shouldn't eliminate the person risk to themselves.

So for the military we ask them to achieve whatever the objective is - General Sir Mike Jackson has spoken about his fear that the whole "heroes" language and sentimentality around soldiers will make the military less useful, because society becomes more concerned with the safety of the soldiers than the state and then military objectives they're being asked to deliver. It'd be great if that could always be with zero casualties, but sometimes it can't.

We did have a shortage of PPE and we didn't tell hospitals to stop tending to victims of the pandemic. The priority was for them to do their job caring for the sick, even though there were awful consequences of that failure to have sufficient PPE.

I get that because of guns the risk to police in the US is a lot higher and because they carry guns they always have a possibility to eliminate that risk. But there may be times when that's not the option - as a police force - that they should take. And I agree with Oex's points.

[Admiral Yi]

... so better strike first, just in case?

In some cases, absolutely.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, I think there has to be a recognition that taking on a risk is part of the job.  If you treat citizens you deal with as citizens rather than civilians, you're probably going to have some cops killed when they wouldn't otherwise be killed.  That's the consequence of living in a country that protects the rights of not just cops, but also citizens.  I'm sure that ordering a drone strike on every car you pull over will likewise result in less cop deaths, but I think even some in the Blue Lives Matter movement would argue that this is an excessive measure to ensure the safety of cops.

I really hate the police talking about people as "civilians".  Police are not an army, yet they have the mindset of an occupying force.

[Jacob]

... so better strike first, just in case?

In some cases, absolutely.

That is completely fucked up.

[DGuller]

... so better strike first, just in case?

In some cases, absolutely.

This is one of those statements that can use some expounding.

[grumbler]

It seems to me that enough people of color have been shot, beaten, tazed, etc. when following police orders to make the "just follow orders" defense a bit weaker...

Anyone who has read the Daniel Shaver story (DG mentioned him earlier) will understand that "just follow orders" can still get you murdered.

We've got way too many of the wrong kinds of cops.  If a cop thinks like Yi, that every citizen is on the verge of becoming an enemy combatant, then we need to get rid of that cop as a danger to society.  Too much chance of more cop murders.

[Admiral Yi]

This is one of those statements that can use some expounding.

I can conceive of situations in which it is better for the cops to shoot first than wait for the suspect to shoot.

Can you not?

[11B4V]

https://kstp.com/news/bca-identifies-officer-in-daunte-wright-shooting/6073236/

Potter has worked for the department for nearly 25 years and is president of the Brooklyn Center Police Officer's Association. In that role, she has represented other officers involved in deadly shootings.

According to an investigation by the Hennepin County Attorney's office, Potter was one of the first officers to arrive after police shot and killed Kobe Dimock-Heisler in 2019.

Investigative records show Potter advised the officers during the early stages of the investigation and was present when one officer gave his statement. Those officers were eventually cleared of any wrongdoing.

[11B4V]

26 year police officer, Union President......no excuse for that mistake.

[Jacob]

This is one of those statements that can use some expounding.

I can conceive of situations in which it is better for the cops to shoot first than wait for the suspect to shoot.

Can you not?

If you conceive of "enemy combatant" as "someone who is shooting at the police" and think it's sometimes okay for the cops to shoot first, because they believe the person is about to shoot, yeah fine.

But we're talking about treating people who are not about to shoot back as "enemy combatants". Someone's hands going out of sight has been used countless times as a reason for shooting them. Some kid lying on the ground holding a toy truck. Some kid in a park holding a toy gun. Some guy at Walmart shopping, holding merchandise. Someone trying to pull up their pants. Someone reaching for their drivers license.

Those people were treated as enemy combatants and shot. They should not have been.

[Admiral Yi]

But we're talking about treating people who are not about to shoot back, and treating them as "enemy combatants".

We weren't before.  We were talking about all people.  All people includes not so nice people.

[Jacob]

But we're talking about treating people who are not about to shoot back, and treating them as "enemy combatants".

We weren't before.  We were talking about all people.  All people includes not so nice people.

That's all we're talking about. We are talking about the American police routinely assuming that people they encounter are "not so nice people" and using that as a reason to shoot a whole bunch of people who, it turns out, were no threat to the police at all; and using those same assumptions to harass and hurt people who are posing no threat to them and are in fact perfectly nice.