Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[derspiess]

Yes, correct me if I am wrong but relatively speaking, compared to the Baltic States there are like no Russians at all in Ukraine.

Depends on how you define "Russians".  Ethnic Ukrainians that only speak Russian and have more loyalty toward Russia than to Ukraine might as well be Russians as far as I'm concerned.

[Tamas]

Yes, correct me if I am wrong but relatively speaking, compared to the Baltic States there are like no Russians at all in Ukraine.

Depends on how you define "Russians".  Ethnic Ukrainians that only speak Russian and have more loyalty toward Russia than to Ukraine might as well be Russians as far as I'm concerned.

They are Russians then. Ethnicity as in terms of biological origin means absolutely nothing in this part of world, despite what a lot of people would have you know. Every neighbouring people have been busy cross-breeding.

[Razgovory]

Which is not the point I was making. 911 was not the case of "defending a member state's territory". It was a case of a hostile terorrist action carried out in a member state's territory. Not the same thing.

Well, NATO differed with your interpretation, but feel free to try to re-define your way into not being wrong if that makes you feel smarter.

It's flattering to know you think so highly of my arguments that you would adopt my rhetoric as your own. 

[CountDeMoney]

Did you all see the Tallinn speech?  Happy now, motherfuckers?

"The armed forces of the United States of America, right here, present, now."

England?  A gas station.  Germany? Staging area. Poland? Our mail gets forwarded there.  Fuck Euroweenia. NATO's HNIC is on the scene, bitches.

Always bet on black.

[derspiess]

Well Seedy is rigid.

[garbon]

Did you all see the Tallinn speech?  Happy now, motherfuckers?

"The armed forces of the United States of America, right here, present, now."

England?  A gas station.  Germany? Staging area. Poland? Our mail gets forwarded there.  Fuck Euroweenia. NATO's HNIC is on the scene, bitches.

Always bet on black.

That's a lot of excitement over Obama.

[derspiess]

Jon Stewart was somewhat less excited: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/stewart-mocks-obama-cant-he-condemn-russia-just-a-little-faster/

[grumbler]

Which is not the point I was making. 911 was not the case of "defending a member state's territory". It was a case of a hostile terorrist action carried out in a member state's territory. Not the same thing.

Well, NATO differed with your interpretation, but feel free to try to re-define your way into not being wrong if that makes you feel smarter.

NATO may call it whatever it wants, with no self-serving explanation I'm sure, but we all know what was meant.  NATO's potential bluff against Russia has never been called yet.

The question was "wouldnt that be the first time NATO actually has to defend any member state's territory?"  The answer was no, NATO invoked Article 5, the mutual self-defense mechanism, against the state of Afghanistan for supporting an attack on a member state.  If Mart had asked "wouldnt that be the first time NATO actually has to defend any member state's territory against Russia?" The answer would, indeed, be "yes."  You can weasel around to try to make the first question into the second in order to be able to ignore the correct answer to the first question, but I don't see the point.

[CountDeMoney]

Well grumbler is rigid.

[grumbler]

Well I guess we will see - if Russia invades a NATO state, wouldnt that be the first time NATO actually has to defend any member state's territory?

It would be the second.  9/11 was the first.

Thankfully we have your attention to nitpickery to highlight the largely ceremonial invocation of Article 5 against a non-state actor.

Marti asked a question, I answered it.  And Article 5 was enacted against Afghanistan, which is technically a state.  I fail to see the point in trying to redefine the question.  Just ask a more qualified question, if you want the more qualified answer.

[grumbler]

Well grumbler is rigid correct.

FTFY.  I don't know why you are getting your panties in a twist over this.

[CountDeMoney]

grumblin' ain't easy.

[DGuller]

Marti asked a question, I answered it.  And Article 5 was enacted against Afghanistan, which is technically a state.  I fail to see the point in trying to redefine the question.  Just ask a more qualified question, if you want the more qualified answer.

What a tool.

[garbon]

Marti asked a question, I answered it.  And Article 5 was enacted against Afghanistan, which is technically a state.  I fail to see the point in trying to redefine the question.  Just ask a more qualified question, if you want the more qualified answer.

What a tool.

What is his purpose?

[Martinus]

Ukrainian media are reporting that Lavrov and Fabius (Russian and French foreign ministers) called "upon the parties of the conflict in Ukraine" to seek an immediate ceasefire. 

Seriously, every time something like this happen I think the French would not stoop to greater lows of being the shittiest humanoids on the planet yet they never cease to amaze me.