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Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

Started by mongers, August 06, 2014, 03:12:53 PM

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Eddie Teach

Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 09:59:28 AM
That is not how it works in the old world dude.

They joined NATO and the EU, time to join the modern world.  :P
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Berkut

Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 09:49:40 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2014, 01:36:43 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 15, 2014, 01:21:54 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 15, 2014, 01:05:11 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 14, 2014, 10:01:26 PM
Next stop American citizenship only for those who speak American. :punk:

Latvia is not the US.

It is foolish to try to pretend like their existential concerns have any parallel to the US.

Do you think such "existential concerns" trump human rights?

As in all questions of this sort, it depends on the concerns and what specific rights are being restricted and whether the threat justifies the restrictions.

My point is simply that garbon is a fool to try to judge Latvia situation by US standards - the US does not have to deal with anything like the threat they do now, and have in the past.

And let's be honest, our own record on dealing with perceived foreigners when we are under a threat doesn't leave us much room to be preaching to others. We rounded up people and shoved them into concentration camps when we had much less of a threat to us than Latvia is facing.

Thing is these aren't immigrants.  These are people who were born there.  And simply because the US has violated the civil rights of it's citizens in the past doesn't mean can criticize  these actions as they happen now.

It does mean that we should understand the power and fear involved, and that it isn't as simple as we might think it is, or wish it to be.

Quote
  Besides this "existential threat" hasn't actually materialized.

Are you kidding me? Russia invaded and occupied Latvia for decades. That threat most certainly DID materialize.

Quote
There is no big crisis on whether or not Latvia should be allowed to exist.  This is nothing less then petty tribalism, nationalism and "getting even".

It is that, and more than that. Pretending it isn't won't help.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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derspiess

"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Eddie Teach

To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

The Brain

I'm shocked, shocked, that Americans think it's A-OK for a big bully nation to invade other countries, fuck them up and then cry foul when the victims fight back.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Tamas

Quote from: The Brain on August 15, 2014, 10:19:12 AM
I'm shocked, shocked, that Americans think it's A-OK for a big bully nation to invade other countries, fuck them up and then cry foul when the victims fight back.

:lol:

garbon

Quote from: The Brain on August 15, 2014, 10:19:12 AM
I'm shocked, shocked, that Americans think it's A-OK for a big bully nation to invade other countries, fuck them up and then cry foul when the victims fight back.

I'm shocked to see Europe resorting to ethno-tribal politics.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Queequeg

Guys my twitter is blowing up, looks like Russian units already in Luhansk.
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

Eddie Teach

Quote from: Tamas on August 15, 2014, 10:23:09 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 15, 2014, 10:19:12 AM
I'm shocked, shocked, that Americans think it's A-OK for a big bully nation to invade other countries, fuck them up and then cry foul when the victims fight back.

:lol:

For such a keen libertarian, you're certainly favoring nationalism over individual rights here.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

DGuller

Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2014, 10:25:13 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 15, 2014, 10:19:12 AM
I'm shocked, shocked, that Americans think it's A-OK for a big bully nation to invade other countries, fuck them up and then cry foul when the victims fight back.

I'm shocked to see Europe resorting to ethno-tribal politics.
There is no good way to reconcile modern moral standards and ethnically-based countries.  It's hard for Americans to really appreciate that, since our country is a melting pot.  Most countries are not melting pots, or just arbitrary entities on a geopolitical map, formed by an accident of history.  Most countries are a union of people sharing ethnicity and culture.  When the common element that defines the country is compromised, you have an existential threat.

Martinus

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 15, 2014, 09:55:40 AM
It's been 70 years, they're Latvians now.

The thing is they do not consider themselves Latvians.

garbon

Quote from: DGuller on August 15, 2014, 10:31:38 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2014, 10:25:13 AM
Quote from: The Brain on August 15, 2014, 10:19:12 AM
I'm shocked, shocked, that Americans think it's A-OK for a big bully nation to invade other countries, fuck them up and then cry foul when the victims fight back.

I'm shocked to see Europe resorting to ethno-tribal politics.
There is no good way to reconcile modern moral standards and ethnically-based countries.

Indeed / why I don't have to support their policies even if one can accept why they have come about.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

garbon

Quote from: Martinus on August 15, 2014, 10:33:15 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 15, 2014, 09:55:40 AM
It's been 70 years, they're Latvians now.

The thing is they do not consider themselves Latvians.

Yeah if I didn't have citizenship where I was living, probably wouldn't consider myself a citizen either. :(
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Valmy

Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2014, 10:33:58 AM
Indeed / why I don't have to support their policies even if one can accept why they have come about.

Yep.  This is why I am not a big fan of ethnically based states.  Multinational states are far better.  Except France of course.
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Martinus

Quote from: Valmy on August 15, 2014, 10:38:02 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 15, 2014, 10:33:58 AM
Indeed / why I don't have to support their policies even if one can accept why they have come about.

Yep.  This is why I am not a big fan of ethnically based states.  Multinational states are far better.  Except France of course.

Only that most states in the world are like that. It's like saying you are not a fan of money based economy. :P