Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Tonitrus]

Or maybe Russian speakers in Latvia can be treated equally/democratically, and then they might support the free Latvian government over Putin's czaropoly?

[DGuller]

Or maybe Russian speakers in Latvia can be treated equally/democratically, and then they might support the free Latvian government over Putin's czaropoly?

No one would ask them for their opinion.

[Berkut]

Next stop American citizenship only for those who speak American.

Latvia is not the US.

It is foolish to try to pretend like their existential concerns have any parallel to the US.

[Razgovory]

They can claim Russian citizenship. And learn Latvian or gtfo.  Latvians deserve their on country after all they've been through.

Oh Yay, ethnic cleansing.

[Razgovory]

Next stop American citizenship only for those who speak American.

Latvia is not the US.

It is foolish to try to pretend like their existential concerns have any parallel to the US.

Do you think such "existential concerns" trump human rights?  Turning a quarter of your populace into alien residents seems like a major human rights thingy.

[Berkut]

Next stop American citizenship only for those who speak American.

Latvia is not the US.

It is foolish to try to pretend like their existential concerns have any parallel to the US.

Do you think such "existential concerns" trump human rights?

As in all questions of this sort, it depends on the concerns and what specific rights are being restricted and whether the threat justifies the restrictions.

My point is simply that garbon is a fool to try to judge Latvia situation by US standards - the US does not have to deal with anything like the threat they do now, and have in the past.

And let's be honest, our own record on dealing with perceived foreigners when we are under a threat doesn't leave us much room to be preaching to others. We rounded up people and shoved them into concentration camps when we had much less of a threat to us than Latvia is facing.

[Martinus]

So what did the Baltic states do that was so wrong?

Language tests for citizenship.

Which is sort of a big thing since it means that a lot of people born there aren't citizens.  Or citizens anywhere actually.

Before January this year I would have agreed with you - now I think the Baltics should have simply deported all ethnic Russians from their borders in the 1990s when Russia was still weak.

[Martinus]

IIRC what the Baltics (again, mostly Latvia and Estonia, it was different in Lithuania) did upon independence was reset their law codes back to pre-Soviet times, only giving Latvian and Estonian citizenship to people who were already citizens before the Soviet ocupation and their descendants, giving the influx of people who moved there in Soviet times and their descendants a not so subtle "go back where you belong" message. It was petty revanchism against Russians, not a deeply thought geopolitical move.

I tend to disagree. What is happening in Ukraine clearly shows that it was a very wise geopolitical move. Or not, because if the Russians stay, their second-class status will serve as a double-bonus casus belli if needed.

Yeah seems like they have just made it way easier to make claim that Russia needs to step in to save Russian people.

Only that in Ukraine and earlier in Georgia, Russia has clearly showed that it is perfectly capable of inventing a reason to invade out of thin air, with no concern for legitimacy or the opinions of the international community - and its own populace is happy lapping up whatever propaganda comes its way.

So the argument (which is still sometimes touted in leftist/liberal media, despite being thoroughly discredited) is really a red herring.

Edit: Especially as we are talking about Baltics states, i.e. NATO members. So if Russia decides to invade those, the fact that ethnic Russians in those states were persecuted and to what degree, will have absolutely zero influence on the geopolitical consequences (or lack thereof).

[Tamas]

In his regular Friday morning radio interview, Hungarian PM Orban declared that the EU is "shooting itself in the foot" with the sanctions against Russia, and he will be looking for partners for calling a EU-Russia conference to agree on ways to cooperate.

I remind you that he signed the biggest loan deal ever in Hungarian history with Putin to build a new nuclear power plant. It is probably also the fishiest deal in Hungarian history, because it came out of the blue, with a secrecy and hurry and total lack of public analysis of the investment which surprised and puzzled experts and the public to this day. There are several theories for the reason, ranging from sheer incompetence through Orban being blackmailed by the Russian secret service (his mobile phone HAS been stolen from her daughter's wedding a few months before the deal was signed  ), to calculations that the country is in a dire financial situation, and having made enemies of the IMF and everyone who could offer meaningful help, the true purpose of the mega-loan is to be spent on daily expenses, seeing Orban off until the next election in 4 years.

So, with his wishy-washing on the Ukraine issue and now de facto open declaration of solidarity with Russia makes him a traitor in my eyes, and I hope this is obvious to EU and NATO leaders as well, and they will keep their plans secret from Hungarian officials, because Hungary has become Russia's Trojan horse in the EU.

[Admiral Yi]

Why doesn't he just leave the EU and rejoin the Warsaw Pact?

[garbon]

As in all questions of this sort, it depends on the concerns and what specific rights are being restricted and whether the threat justifies the restrictions.

My point is simply that garbon is a fool to try to judge Latvia situation by US standards - the US does not have to deal with anything like the threat they do now, and have in the past.

I've no sympathy if the only way a country can exist is by enforcing language laws and denying citizenship to individuals born there who don't speak the language.

While it might be understandable, it is still incredibly backwards and I don't really see why the actual West should support that.

And let's be honest, our own record on dealing with perceived foreigners when we are under a threat doesn't leave us much room to be preaching to others. We rounded up people and shoved them into concentration camps when we had much less of a threat to us than Latvia is facing.

Ah yes, because terrible things that people did before I was born should prevent me from being disgusted by oppression.


Note I would change my position if, as I don't pay much attention to that region, it has been the case that Latvia has been plagued since independence with ethnic Russians trying to violently force it back into Russia.

[celedhring]

Why doesn't he just leave the EU and rejoin the Warsaw Pact?

Yeah, that worked a charm last time.

Can't believe that an Hungarian of all things could be in bed with Russia while Moscow is pulling a 1956 with their neighbor.

[Tamas]

Why doesn't he just leave the EU and rejoin the Warsaw Pact?

Yeah, that worked a charm last time.

Can't believe that an Hungarian of all things could be in bed with Russia while Moscow is pulling a 1956 with their neighbor.

Yeah, it is crazy. Post-medieval times, Russia has been by far the worst influence on Hungary. They ruthlessly crushed both of our attempts at independence and modernity (1848 and 1956), they kept in power a system which eventually broke the back of the nation and made them a bunch of docile sheep (post '56).

Of course, when you are a would-be Putin yourself, those things don't matter much I guess.

And if Orban stays, leaving the EU is only a matter of time. EU has been too useful for him as everything that has been built in the country the last 6 years have been built from EU grants. But nowadays there is no more EU grant money, since the EU didn't appreciate the reorganisation of the office dealing with the money (basically everything was concentrated in the hand of Orban's right hand man, and chaos ensued).

So give him some time. I will be one day applying for a visa to visit my parents.

[Martinus]

Tamas, I gotta tell you nothing gives me as much joy as watching Polish right wingers tying themselves in knots over their erstwhile support of Orban. Sure go ahead and denounce Western amoral liberalism - but know that this makes you a pal of the likes of China, Russia and Turkey.

By the way, your idol, JKM is the only staunchly pro-Putin politician in Poland. Hopefully this will make even his idiot supporters stop voting for him.

[Tamas]

Tamas, I gotta tell you nothing gives me as much joy as watching Polish right wingers tying themselves in knots over their erstwhile support of Orban. Sure go ahead and denounce Western amoral liberalism - but know that this makes you a pal of the likes of China, Russia and Turkey.

By the way, your idol, JKM is the only staunchly pro-Putin politician in Poland. Hopefully this will make even his idiot supporters stop voting for him.

He is not my "idol" since as you point out, often trolling the general consensus seems more important for him than just being a politician for his side. But I do like him for being a proponent of classical liberalism, in economies if nothing else. Need more of that in Eastern Europe.