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Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

Started by mongers, August 06, 2014, 03:12:53 PM

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Razgovory

That is a good point Mongers.  I don't think it's limited to military, but the lack of strong organizing principle hurts the EU everywhere.  I think that was most evident in the aftermath of the 2008 crash.  While the US certainly suffered, a strong response from the federal government averted the worst of it, while in Europe individual governments essentially tried to beggar each other and everyone ended up worse off.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

derspiess

"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Ed Anger

Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

Admiral Yi


Tamas

Probably the matter of the aid trucks is settled: stuff from them shall be packed into Red Cross trucks at the border.

However, speaking of the border, it is now non-existent in a 100 kilometres wide sector: apparently while the Ukrainians were busy establishing the siege of Donetsk, the border guard forces at the south-east were surrounded by separatists. They held out for 3 weeks then now broke out and joined their main army at Donetsk, but as a result, there is absolutely no control over the Ukrainian-Russian border on a vast territory.


The Larch

Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2014, 07:17:07 PM
Quote from: The Larch on August 12, 2014, 07:05:34 PM
Blind eye? IIRC the EU forced them (mostly Latvia and Estonia) to vastly improve their situation as a condition for entering the union.
From my understanding either the situation was really awful prior to EU accession, or it was barely improved.

There's still lots of statelessness and restrictions on education.

I think the Baltics (and Cyprus and Romania and Bulgaria and, maybe, Hungary) were let in too soon which meant a little weakening of standards.

IIRC what they got mostly out of it was a path to citizenship that was previously blocked for them.

derspiess

Quote from: Tamas on August 13, 2014, 05:22:28 AM
Probably the matter of the aid trucks is settled: stuff from them shall be packed into Red Cross trucks at the border.

However, speaking of the border, it is now non-existent in a 100 kilometres wide sector: apparently while the Ukrainians were busy establishing the siege of Donetsk, the border guard forces at the south-east were surrounded by separatists. They held out for 3 weeks then now broke out and joined their main army at Donetsk, but as a result, there is absolutely no control over the Ukrainian-Russian border on a vast territory.



Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  Those guys were in a precarious situation and it was probably the best decision to get them out.  Hopefully Ukrainian troops are able to keep moving against the "separatists".

The Russian insurgents must be made to feel that this was a real war, and that they are to be swept away by the hand of God, like the Jews of old.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Valmy

Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2014, 05:35:58 PM
And of course the example of the Baltic treatment of Russian minorities and the Euro blind eye to it is a real and unfortunate example.

Well they were put there to undermine the Baltic States' independence and enforce Russian power and control.  It is hard to imagine that going well for anybody involved.  You must treat people well who were put in your country with the purpose of creating an existential threat to your country?  Hmmmm yeah without a pretty enormous stick and a particularly yummy carrot they are not going to do that.  Suicide is a lot to ask from a country.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Tamas

Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2014, 09:07:10 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 12, 2014, 05:35:58 PM
And of course the example of the Baltic treatment of Russian minorities and the Euro blind eye to it is a real and unfortunate example.

Well they were put there to undermine the Baltic States' independence and enforce Russian power and control.  It is hard to imagine that going well for anybody involved.  You must treat people well who were put in your country with the purpose of creating an existential threat to your country?  Hmmmm yeah without a pretty enormous stick and a particularly yummy carrot they are not going to do that.  Suicide is a lot to ask from a country.

:yes:

LaCroix

Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2014, 09:07:10 AMYou must treat people well who were put in your country with the purpose of creating an existential threat to your country?  Hmmmm yeah without a pretty enormous stick and a particularly yummy carrot they are not going to do that.  Suicide is a lot to ask from a country.

they're people, not influence counters on a game board.

Berkut

People can in fact be influence counters on a game board, when they are treated as such.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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derspiess

Quote from: LaCroix on August 13, 2014, 09:51:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2014, 09:07:10 AMYou must treat people well who were put in your country with the purpose of creating an existential threat to your country?  Hmmmm yeah without a pretty enormous stick and a particularly yummy carrot they are not going to do that.  Suicide is a lot to ask from a country.

they're people, not influence counters on a game board.

They're people who should be repatriated back to Russia.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

LaCroix

Quote from: Berkut on August 13, 2014, 09:53:56 AMPeople can in fact be influence counters on a game board, when they are treated as such.

a minority population can be used to justify war or extend influence. but, that's different from turning a blind eye to discrimination against a group of people because of a history completely unrelated to those specific individuals. boris isn't responsible for what russia does or did

LaCroix

Quote from: derspiess on August 13, 2014, 10:01:08 AMThey're people who should be repatriated back to Russia.

if the african countries started systematically deporting whites forcefully and at gunpoint, would you agree with that?

Valmy

Quote from: LaCroix on August 13, 2014, 09:51:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 13, 2014, 09:07:10 AMYou must treat people well who were put in your country with the purpose of creating an existential threat to your country?  Hmmmm yeah without a pretty enormous stick and a particularly yummy carrot they are not going to do that.  Suicide is a lot to ask from a country.

they're people, not influence counters on a game board.

They were people moved to the Baltic States to act as Russia's influence counters.  They are victims here.  I specifically said that.  So...what are you lecturing me on here?  That I should ignore realities and instead demand sunshine and lollipops for all?

Edit: By the way really glad you are posting a lot more here.  You add a lot to the discussions.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."