Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

[DGuller]

Vance makes my skin crawl.

[Tonitrus]

It was going fairly well (with some asides)...far better than I had expected...up until that certain point:

- The VPOTUS felt compelled to make a (mostly) fluffy comment to prop up the boss.
- Pres. Zelensky tried to clarify some sequence of events (arguably, even if right, better to not say anything).
- the VPOTUS leaps on to the attack, some arguing ensues, and the POTUS takes the side of his VP...everyone loses their emotions for a bit (Zelensky being the calmest/most-talked over of the three).

Could have easily been avoided...this is kind of press event where the less said, the better.  Zelenskiy, even if correct, could not win a verbal brawl (see cliche about wrestling in the mud with pigs)...and the VPOTUS was probably happy to sabotage any of the little progress that had been made over the proceeding week.

[crazy canuck]

That was hard to watch. 

[Threviel]

There was no winning with the Americans anyway, better to cut the cord and hope for the best rather than be thrown under the bus.

[DGuller]

I agree that if there was no good faith there to begin with, then you're better off not humiliating yourself in front of the world before the inevitable happens anyway.

[Tonitrus]

Yeah...the minerals deal is already dead.  I was not a fan of it (to me, it is the ethical equivalent of only helping a rape victim by demanding they become your sex slave), but it had the potential to be enough of a fig leave to accomplish an intermediate goal...with the hope a later administration could just absolve the obligations.

[Zanza]

Based on the prior comments of Trump and his coterie I guess this was always destined for failure.

[Zoupa]

This was painful to watch. I don't know what the right approach is with Trump, or even if there is a right approach, but I don't think this was it. Z should not have accepted to be in the room with all that press, that's of course assuming he had any inkling of what the 3 stooges would be assaulting him with.

What a shitshow. Ukraine stands alone. Thank god the russians are so fucking stupid and terrible at warfare.

I don't know. I think it's different depending on context.

I think Jeffrey Goldberg said the best approach (citing Abe as very effective) was flattery and golf. I think that's probably the approach Europeans need to take right now. But I think with Ukraine, there is maybe a need to show fight and emphasise that you exist as a nation (maybe similar with Canada?).

On the other hand I am struck how much Europeans seem to have this issue while I feel countries in other regions (including Japan and other allies) kind of feel like they have a handle on how to deal with Trump.

Japan and other allies don't have the biggest war since WW2 on their doorstep.

I think Vance has back-channels to the Kremlin and is just a puppet. Someone called David Sacks, Sacks went to Musk, Musk went to Vance, Vance went for insults and prodding. You could see Rubio dying inside.

[Tonitrus]

On the surface at least...some progress had been made. 

Earlier in the week, the POTUS denied calling Zelensky a dictator (I know, a bald-faced lie).  In this press meeting, up until the blow-up, the  POTUS was giving mostly neutral answers and not really betraying any bias.

Both sides were leaving a lot of options open, and on the surface, the press event was actually looking far better than I thought it would.  Then it all went to crap over something mostly innocuous that could have been avoided.  I do think Zelensky made a small mistake there (as I said, even if he was correct)...and I think the VP was happy to have an opening to sabotage the event.  And then the emotions brought all the bias' out.

I don't think there was any "humiliation" going on up to that point (unless you think the meeting happening at all amounted to humiliation).

[HisMajestyBOB]

I don't think there was any "humiliation" going on up to that point (unless you think the meeting happening at all amounted to humiliation).

President Trump's second term is an ongoing humiliation, but I'm assuming you mean relative to that baseline.

[Tonitrus]

I don't think there was any "humiliation" going on up to that point (unless you think the meeting happening at all amounted to humiliation).

President Trump's second term is an ongoing humiliation, but I'm assuming you mean relative to that baseline.

My reference was to any active humiliation going on during the visit/press event...up until the blow-up.

[Syt]

[Zoupa]

I don't think there was any "humiliation" going on up to that point (unless you think the meeting happening at all amounted to humiliation).

President Trump's second term is an ongoing humiliation, but I'm assuming you mean relative to that baseline.

My reference was to any active humiliation going on during the visit/press event...up until the blow-up.

I think this was planned by Vance because he's compromised. I think Trump is so dumb and is very easily manipulated, and Vance knew what was gonna happen with these comments.

[Tonitrus]

the image

So American help is too helpful?

[Grey Fox]

Krasnov strikes again.