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Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

Started by mongers, August 06, 2014, 03:12:53 PM

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Maladict

Quote from: The Brain on November 21, 2022, 09:42:37 AMDid he mean the actual Nuremberg Laws?

Yes. He then argues that all US presidents are Jewish and married non-Jews.

OttoVonBismarck

#12241
I was mocking Mearsheimer back when this war started, it's offensive to realists for him to present himself as one in most contexts.

Edit: Mearsheimer's takes are usually pretty bad, but god damn that interview is brutal. He seems almost oblivious to how stupid he sounds in his answers and how self-contradictory his arguments are with his actual spoken words.

Barrister

Quote from: Berkut on November 21, 2022, 09:39:33 AMWhat I don't understand about shit like this, is that their bullshit is fucking obvious. It's like listening to Chomsky talk about history. He once said  " If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. ". I mean....WTF? What is the rational or logical utility of such a claim? It's so stupid, on so many different levels.

Anyone looking at the crap they spew objectively can trivially identify the fallacies and utter crap in their arguments pretty much instantly. It's not difficult at all.

I believe I must always post this Space Moose comic from 1994 when Noam Chomsky is discussed...




Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Tonitrus

Probably shouldn't post/embed NSFW images onto the public forum though...

Legbiter

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 21, 2022, 03:39:44 PMI was mocking Mearsheimer back when this war started, it's offensive to realists for him to present himself as one in most contexts.

Edit: Mearsheimer's takes are usually pretty bad, but god damn that interview is brutal. He seems almost oblivious to how stupid he sounds in his answers and how self-contradictory his arguments are with his actual spoken words.

Mearsheimer's supposed "realist" position is not very realistic. For him it's like Russia never made formal demands that NATO disband to the 1997 borders as a condition for peace in the frantic diplomacy leading up to the war. If keeping Ukraine out of NATO was actually a serious goal for Russia that mission was basically accomplished without it firing a shot. If Putin had taken his winnings and walked away then and there, there would have been zero appetite for Ukrainian NATO membership within the alliance.

Posted using 100% recycled electrons.

Barrister

Quote from: Tonitrus on November 21, 2022, 09:39:46 PMProbably shouldn't post/embed NSFW images onto the public forum though...

What's so NSFW about it?

I mean Space Moose and Billie the Bionic Bader are pointing at a dinosaur's junk, butt you only see it from behind.

You do see Moose-on-Moose anal sex, but again nothing explicit is shown.

I guess there's a cartoon penis as part of the landscape in the last panel, but maybe I'm wrong but I don't think that's enough to make it NSFW.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Barrister

Quote from: Legbiter on November 22, 2022, 03:22:27 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 21, 2022, 03:39:44 PMI was mocking Mearsheimer back when this war started, it's offensive to realists for him to present himself as one in most contexts.

Edit: Mearsheimer's takes are usually pretty bad, but god damn that interview is brutal. He seems almost oblivious to how stupid he sounds in his answers and how self-contradictory his arguments are with his actual spoken words.

Mearsheimer's supposed "realist" position is not very realistic. For him it's like Russia never made formal demands that NATO disband to the 1997 borders as a condition for peace in the frantic diplomacy leading up to the war. If keeping Ukraine out of NATO was actually a serious goal for Russia that mission was basically accomplished without it firing a shot. If Putin had taken his winnings and walked away then and there, there would have been zero appetite for Ukrainian NATO membership within the alliance.

Plus there's the whole "you can only listen to what Putin says, not what he does" which is just moronic.

Plus (I got this from other sources) Mearsheimer blatantly misconstrues the article written by Putin that supposedly acknowledges Ukrainian sovereignty.  In Russian it says he recognizes Ukrainian sovereignty in association with Russia - which isn't actually sovereignty at all.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Legbiter

Quote from: Barrister on November 22, 2022, 04:06:58 PMPlus there's the whole "you can only listen to what Putin says, not what he does" which is just moronic.

Yeah. Putin demanded Ukraine submit to Russia, that NATO give up it's former Warsaw Pact members and that America acquiesce to Russia being the European hegemon. He demanded a new European security framework. Well, Russia got it's wish but not in the way it wanted.

The Eastern European/Nordic post-war playbook is a Marshall Plan for Ukraine and a Morgenthau Plan for Russia...
Posted using 100% recycled electrons.

Barrister

Quote from: Legbiter on November 22, 2022, 04:43:45 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 22, 2022, 04:06:58 PMPlus there's the whole "you can only listen to what Putin says, not what he does" which is just moronic.

Yeah. Putin demanded Ukraine submit to Russia, that NATO give up it's former Warsaw Pact members and that America acquiesce to Russia being the European hegemon. He demanded a new European security framework. Well, Russia got it's wish but not in the way it wanted.

The Eastern European/Nordic post-war playbook is a Marshall Plan for Ukraine and a Morgenthau Plan for Russia...

So there was an opposition Russian politician, spokesman for Navalny, who was calling for a Marshall Plan not only for Ukraine, but for Russia as well once the war is over.  The guy was roasted on Twitter for doing so.

I dunno though - there's something to that.  The original Marshall Plan went to both former allied and axis powers.  In the case of a true collapse of the Russian regime (and not just a coup by a different set of oligarchs or FSB men) the West ought to step up and try to save Russia from further collapse and try to re-integrate it into the global economy.  (Hopefully while also allowing various ethnic groups that want it independence).

Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Legbiter

Quote from: Barrister on November 22, 2022, 05:06:25 PMSo there was an opposition Russian politician, spokesman for Navalny, who was calling for a Marshall Plan not only for Ukraine, but for Russia as well once the war is over.

Sure if an American general writes their constitution and Russia is demilitarized and denuclearized...
Posted using 100% recycled electrons.

Barrister

Quote from: Legbiter on November 22, 2022, 05:13:06 PM
Quote from: Barrister on November 22, 2022, 05:06:25 PMSo there was an opposition Russian politician, spokesman for Navalny, who was calling for a Marshall Plan not only for Ukraine, but for Russia as well once the war is over.

Sure if an American general writes their constitution and Russia is demilitarized and denuclearized...

Constitution - Russia's present constitution is more-or-less okay.  They just don't follow it.

Demilitarized - never been done to anyone.  Even Japan was allowed it's Self Defence Forces.

Denuclearized :hmm:

But yes, that's kind of what I'm thinking.  If Russia is willing to be rebuilt from the ground up, culturally, politically and economically, we (the west) should invest heavily.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Jacob

Talk of a Marshall plan to Russia is entirely too premature. Russia has not been defeated yet.

Admiral Yi

I'm not that interested in sending a collapsing Russia a bunch of free money.

Josquius

Quote from: Jacob on November 22, 2022, 05:25:57 PMTalk of a Marshall plan to Russia is entirely too premature. Russia has not been defeated yet.
First rats to jump ship get dibs.

Hint hint tartars.
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