Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Tamas]

Seems like the international press is picking up the Russian narrative on this incident where it's claimed Ukrainians filmed themselves executing 9 Russian POWs who had surrendered.

What seems to be missing from those reportings -admittedly you need to pay attention to the video- is that said video ends with the last Russian soldier emerging with an assault rifle and opening fire point blank on the Ukrainians:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1593537553075953670

Perfidy, no? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidy

Since it was 1 Russian shooting the rest lying down I'd assume a rogue asshat, but still makes it acceptable (if tragic) in my book that all the Russians got shot in the ensuing chaos. I don't think I would have had the suicidal courage as a Ukrainian soldier in that situation to pause and review which Russians are honestly surrendering and which are trying to kill me.

[Josquius]

I don't for a second doubt soldiers on the Ukrainian side have committed war crimes. They do have some rather shitty people in their ranks, as does any country even in good circumstances let alone in their situation.

However I have far more confidence ukraine will actually investigate and see justice served for any illegal incidents than I do that Russia even recognises anything bad ever happened unde their watch.


I've no idea what I'm seeing in that twitter video. Guy coming round the corner is a Russian still fighting?

[Tamas]

yes its clearer if you have also seen the full video but basically these Ukrainian start filming while still in a firefight with the Russians who are on the backyard of some family home. The Ukrainians advance and find the Russians coming out surrendering from that ruined side building. At the end of the video that extra Russian guy jumps out and starts unloading and the film abruptly stops, from the sounds I assume the cameraman was hit.

[Sheilbh]

Rather

And pictures of the first train arriving Kherson:
https://twitter.com/mattia_n/status/1593913657032904705?s=20&t=U1ZcANupcA9fPS765xMOFA

It's just incredible how quickly they've re-connected a formally occupied city to the national network and must feel incredible for people in Kherson with family or friends in the rest of Ukraine, or vice versa. Just great pictures:

[Legbiter]

Major smoking incident near a gas pipeline in St. Petersburg.

[Duque de Bragança]

Major smoking incident near a gas pipeline in St. Petersburg.

Does it mean more fatal window falls soon? 

[Tamas]

Back to that alleged incident, here is the Guardian's report on it: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/18/russia-says-ukrainian-soldiers-executed-prisoners-of-war-in-donbas-region

Would it be that hard to actually watch the video before writing the article? Because it does not show the killing of anyone let alone 10 Russian soldiers. As I understand the Russians are using drone footage of dead bodies claimed to be the ones surrendering, to say this was a war crime.

[grumbler]

Back to that alleged incident, here is the Guardian's report on it: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/18/russia-says-ukrainian-soldiers-executed-prisoners-of-war-in-donbas-region

Would it be that hard to actually watch the video before writing the article? Because it does not show the killing of anyone let alone 10 Russian soldiers. As I understand the Russians are using drone footage of dead bodies claimed to be the ones surrendering, to say this was a war crime.

When I read the article, I missed the part where the Guardian actually says the video showed Russian soldiers being killed.  It says just that it seems to indicate that the soldiers were killed.  Which is a true statement.

[celedhring]

The Ukrainian government is playing the right tune, at least. From The Guardian:

Olha Stefanishyna, Ukraine's deputy prime minister in charge of the country's push to join the European Union, told the agency: "Of course Ukrainian authorities will investigate this video." Speaking at a security forum in Halifax, Nova Scotia, she said it was "very unlikely" that the short clips show what Moscow claims.

Russia said on Friday it had opened a criminal investigation based on the clips circulating on Russian social media, and its foreign ministry claims the footage shows an "execution".

Russia wants an international investigation but Stefanishyna said Ukrainian forces were "absolutely not interested in the execution of anybody" and were under direct orders to take "as many prisoners of war as we can" so they could be swapped in prisoner exchanges with Russia.

The UN's Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine has called for further investigation, which Stefanishyna said Ukraine had "no problem" with.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I believe every war since we established the concept of war crimes, has featured every participant in all of those wars committing at least some war crimes. What is obviously important is that a country that cares about the rule of law has systems in place to minimize such incidents as much as is possible, and to vigorously prosecute and punish perpetrators when they happen. As far as I can tell in the Ukraine war, the Russian soldiers are being actively encouraged to commit mass war crimes, and the Ukrainian soldiers are largely being counseled to obey the laws of war.

[Josquius]

As said anyone who claims Ukrainian soldiers have never done anything wrong is a brainwashed nutter or woefully naiive.
The key isn't whether some of your soldiers misbehave, its how you respond.

Weird however given there definitely are real Ukrainian crimes out there the Russians pick this pretty explainably innocent one to push.

[The Minsky Moment]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/john-mearsheimer-on-putins-ambitions-after-nine-months-of-war

This is a link to an interview with political scientist John Mearsheimer.  I admittedly hadn't heard of him, but he is apparently pretty prominent as a "realist" in international relations.  He has repeatedly laid the blame for the whole situation in Ukraine on the US, and he continues to do so to this day.

This interview though is just masterful.  He fully Mearsheimer as a complete idiot all without ever getting hostile, or without challenging him.  He just keeps asking questions...

Mearshimer: I mean, there's no question that Hitler lied at Munich, and one can point to one or two other instances where Hitler lied

Interviewer: Maybe more than one or two.

ffs

[Duque de Bragança]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/john-mearsheimer-on-putins-ambitions-after-nine-months-of-war

This is a link to an interview with political scientist John Mearsheimer.  I admittedly hadn't heard of him, but he is apparently pretty prominent as a "realist" in international relations.  He has repeatedly laid the blame for the whole situation in Ukraine on the US, and he continues to do so to this day.

This interview though is just masterful.  He fully Mearsheimer as a complete idiot all without ever getting hostile, or without challenging him.  He just keeps asking questions...

Mearshimer: I mean, there's no question that Hitler lied at Munich, and one can point to one or two other instances where Hitler lied

Interviewer: Maybe more than one or two.

ffs

 

[Berkut]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/john-mearsheimer-on-putins-ambitions-after-nine-months-of-war

This is a link to an interview with political scientist John Mearsheimer.  I admittedly hadn't heard of him, but he is apparently pretty prominent as a "realist" in international relations.  He has repeatedly laid the blame for the whole situation in Ukraine on the US, and he continues to do so to this day.

This interview though is just masterful.  He fully Mearsheimer as a complete idiot all without ever getting hostile, or without challenging him.  He just keeps asking questions...

Mearshimer: I mean, there's no question that Hitler lied at Munich, and one can point to one or two other instances where Hitler lied

Interviewer: Maybe more than one or two.

ffs

 

What I don't understand about shit like this, is that their bullshit is fucking obvious. It's like listening to Chomsky talk about history. He once said  " If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. ". I mean....WTF? What is the rational or logical utility of such a claim? It's so stupid, on so many different levels. 

Anyone looking at the crap they spew objectively can trivially identify the fallacies and utter crap in their arguments pretty much instantly. It's not difficult at all.

It's depressing that many people do not however. They like the conclusion, so they swallow the idiotic argument that get to that conclusion.

[The Brain]

Did he mean the actual Nuremberg Laws?