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Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

Started by mongers, August 06, 2014, 03:12:53 PM

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Josquius

Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2022, 02:02:31 PM
Quote from: PJL on October 05, 2022, 01:38:58 PMDo you have any details on where he went on his 3-year 'jaunt' from 1941 to 1944? Especially since I expected he thought it would last 6 months at most at the start. Just curious...
As far as I know he was a normal conscripted infantry soldier in the 123rd infantry division. With five other divisions, his division was encircled for a year several months in the Demyansk pocket near Novgorod and then afterwards involved in heavy fighting in Southern Ukraine. He got sick with diphtheria and spent the rest of the war occupying Denmark and then briefly as British POW after the war.

Edited the duration
Lucky guy.

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 04, 2022, 03:02:06 PMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAttXqMyEi0&list=RDCMUCyOyXou98UVX8qxPv8USQNQ&start_radio=1&ab_channel=UkraineNewsTV

The Ukrainians seem to be 'on fire'. Amazing gains again.

The Russian on the other hand seem to be fired on...

Ukraine is running out of flags :lol:
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PDH

I am glad the Ukrainians are prudent with their advances: first conquering wide swaths of land filled with abandoned tanks and surrendering Russians, then letting their soldiers rest for a bit.

It makes it easier to follow this war instead of 24/7 following the twitter feeds.  This is well thought out to help the armchair generals.
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
-Umberto Eco

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"I'm pretty sure my level of depression has nothing to do with how much of a fucking asshole you are."

-CdM

viper37

QuoteWASHINGTON — United States intelligence agencies believe parts of the Ukrainian government authorized the car bomb attack near Moscow in August that killed Daria Dugina, the daughter of a prominent Russian nationalist, an element of a covert campaign that U.S. officials fear could widen the conflict.

The United States took no part in the attack, either by providing intelligence or other assistance, officials said. American officials also said they were not aware of the operation ahead of time and would have opposed the killing had they been consulted. Afterward, American officials admonished Ukrainian officials over the assassination, they said.

The closely held assessment of Ukrainian complicity, which has not been previously reported, was shared within the U.S. government last week. Ukraine denied involvement in the killing immediately after the attack, and senior officials repeated those denials when asked about the American intelligence assessment.

While Russia has not retaliated in a specific way for the assassination, the United States is concerned that such attacks — while high in symbolic value — have little direct impact on the battlefield and could provoke Moscow to carry out its own strikes against senior Ukrainian officials. American officials have been frustrated with Ukraine's lack of transparency about its military and covert plans, especially on Russian soil.

Since the beginning of the war, Ukraine's security services have demonstrated their ability to reach into Russia to conduct sabotage operations. The killing of Ms. Dugina, however, would be one of the boldest operations to date — showing Ukraine can get very close to prominent Russians.

Some American officials suspect Ms. Dugina's father, Aleksandr Dugin, a Russian ultranationalist, was the actual target of the operation, and that the operatives who carried it out believed he would be in the vehicle with his daughter.

Mr. Dugin, one of Russia's most prominent voices urging Moscow to intensify its war on Ukraine, has been a leading proponent of an aggressive, imperialist Russia.

The American officials who spoke about the intelligence did not disclose which elements of the Ukrainian government were believed to have authorized the mission, who carried out the attack, or whether President Volodymyr Zelensky had signed off on the mission. United States officials briefed on the Ukrainian action and the American response spoke on the condition of anonymity, in order to discuss secret information and matters of sensitive diplomacy.

U.S. officials would not say who in the American government delivered the admonishments or whom in the Ukrainian government they were delivered to. It was not known what Ukraine's response was.

While the Pentagon and spy agencies have shared sensitive battlefield intelligence with the Ukrainians, helping them zero in on Russian command posts, supply lines and other key targets, the Ukrainians have not always told American officials what they plan to do.

The United States has pressed Ukraine to share more about its war plans, with mixed success. Earlier in the war, U.S. officials acknowledged that they often knew more about Russian war plans — thanks to their intense collection efforts — than they did about Kyiv's intentions.

Cooperation has since increased. During the summer, Ukraine shared its plans for its September military counteroffensive with the United States and Britain.

U.S. officials also lack a complete picture of the competing power centers within the Ukrainian government, including the military, the security services and Mr. Zelensky's office, a fact that may explain why some parts of the Ukrainian government may not have been aware of the plot.

When asked about the U.S. intelligence assessment, Mykhailo Podolyak, an adviser to Ukraine's president, reiterated the Ukrainian government's denials of involvement in Ms. Dugina's killing.

"Again, I'll underline that any murder during wartime in some country or another must carry with it some kind of practical significance," Mr. Podolyak told The New York Times in an interview on Tuesday. "It should fulfill some specific purpose, tactical or strategic. Someone like Dugina is not a tactical or a strategic target for Ukraine.

"We have other targets on the territory of Ukraine," he said, "I mean collaborationists and representatives of the Russian command, who might have value for members of our special services working in this program, but certainly not Dugina."

Though details surrounding acts of sabotage in Russian-controlled territory have been shrouded in mystery, the Ukrainian government has quietly acknowledged killing Russian officials in Ukraine and sabotaging Russian arms factories and weapons depots.

A senior Ukrainian military official who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the topic, said that Ukrainian forces, with the help of local fighters, had carried out assassinations and attacks on accused Ukrainian collaborators and Russian officials in occupied Ukrainian territories. These include the Kremlin-installed head of the Kherson region, who was poisoned in August and had to be evacuated to Moscow for emergency treatment.

Countries traditionally do not discuss other nations' covert actions, for fear of having their own operations revealed, but some American officials believe it is crucial to curb what they see as dangerous adventurism, particularly political assassinations.

Still, American officials in recent days have taken pains to insist that relations between the two governments remain strong. U.S. concerns about Ukraine's aggressive covert operations inside Russia have not prompted any known changes in the provision of intelligence, military and diplomatic support to Mr. Zelensky's government or to Ukraine's security services.

In a phone call on Saturday, Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken told his Ukrainian counterpart, Dmytro Kuleba, that the Biden administration "will continue to support Ukraine's efforts to regain control of its territory by strengthening its hand militarily and diplomatically," according to Ned Price, the State Department's spokesman.

Officials from the State Department, National Security Council, Pentagon and C.I.A. declined to comment on the intelligence assessment.

The war in Ukraine is at an especially dangerous moment. The United States has tried carefully to avoid unnecessary escalation with Moscow throughout the conflict — in part by telling Kyiv not to use American equipment or intelligence to conduct attacks inside of Russia. But now, the recent battlefield successes by Ukraine have prompted Russia to respond with a series of escalatory steps, like conducting a partial mobilization and moving to annex swaths of eastern Ukraine.

Concern is growing in Washington that Russia may be considering further steps to intensify the war, including by renewing efforts to assassinate prominent Ukrainian leaders. Mr. Zelensky would be the top target of Russian assassination teams, as he was during the Russian assault on Kyiv earlier in the war.

But now, American officials said Russia could target a wide variety of Ukrainian leaders, many of whom have less protection than Mr. Zelensky.

The United States and Europe had imposed sanctions on Ms. Dugina. She shared her father's worldview and was accused by the West of spreading Russian propaganda about Ukraine.

Russia opened a murder investigation after Ms. Dugina's assassination, calling the explosion that killed her a terrorist act. Ms. Dugina was killed instantly in the explosion, which occurred in the Odintsovo district, an affluent area in Moscow's suburbs.

After the bombing, speculation centered on whether Ukraine was responsible or if it was a false flag operation meant to pin blame on Ukrainians. The bombing took place after a series of Ukrainian strikes in Crimea, part of Ukraine that Russia seized in 2014. Those strikes had led ultranationalists in Mr. Dugin's circle to urge Mr. Putin to intensify the war in Ukraine.

Russia's domestic intelligence service, the F.S.B., blamed Ms. Dugina's murder on Ukraine's intelligence services. In an announcement made a day after the attack, the F.S.B. said that Ukrainian operatives had contracted a Ukrainian woman, who entered Russia in July and rented an apartment where Ms. Dugina lived. The woman then fled Russia after the bombing, according to the F.S.B.

Ilya Ponomarev, a former member of the Russian Duma who voted against the annexation of Crimea, has claimed that a group made up of pro-Ukrainian and anti-Putin fighters operating in Russia known as the National Republican Army was responsible for the killing.

In an interview with The New York Times, Mr. Ponomarev claimed to be in contact with the National Republican Army and was aware of the operation against Ms. Dugina several hours before it occurred. Many officials in Washington have been skeptical of Mr. Ponomarev's claims on behalf of the group.
U.S. Believes Ukrainians Were Behind an Assassination in Russia
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

celedhring

#11073
Quote from: Iormlund on October 05, 2022, 01:15:43 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2022, 11:32:18 AM
Quote from: Zanza on October 05, 2022, 11:18:54 AMAnecdote: My grandfather did a Soviet Union trip in the 1960s as he wanted to see the beauty of the country. His previous stay from 1941 to 1944 had not been that nice...

 :lol:

Grandparent stories must be rough in Germany.



Well, our grandpas had similar stories.

Once, while playing with toy soldiers, my paternal grandpa saw me. He did not like his grandkids playing war at all.
He told me then about the time he and a few dozen people hid among the hay from what I'm now assuming were Polikarpov I-15s. The planes strafed the field and killed quite a few of his mates.
Fortunately for him he had an education and knew how to draw, so he was useful far from the front.

My cousin's paternal grandpa was shot fighting for the other side, his brother killed.

Even younger people remember the war. I once spent a week or so with a remarkable 74 year-old as roommate. He told me quite a few stories about the maquis.

That's probably true :D

Well, only my paternal grandpa fought in the civil war (my maternal one escaped conscription by the republicans, since he was a carlist), and yeah, he had some stories too. He was in the battle of the Ebro and barely escaped friendly fire when Republican bombers starting dropping ordinance on them. And then after the war his neighbor ratted him out as a red, and was sent to a forced labor camp, which he escaped.

He also was in the invasion of Mallorca and the Aragon offensive, so yeah, he experienced all the Republic's military disasters first-hand.

I remember in his dying bed telling me that he was happy to have had such a long life, since many of his squadmates didn't make it.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2022, 05:23:05 PMHe also was in the invasion of Mallorca and the Aragon offensive, so yeah, he experienced all the Republic's military disasters first-hand.

There's one or two he missed.

Jacob

Seems like the internal power struggle in Russia is beginning to become a bit more public: https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1577780691626037248

At the moment, it looks like it's Priogzhin (with Kadyrov?) vs Shoigu (and Volodin?)

Valmy

I am just going to presume both of those guys are pieces of human shit equivalent to Putin. There will be no dawn for Russia I am afraid.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Tonitrus

Yeah, alas Putin, and the power structure created under him, is such that I anything short of a massive popular revolution (and all of the chaos, disorder, and collapse that would result) will just mean another Putin-esque, or Putin-light leader is the inevitable outcome of Putin himself being out of the picture.

For all the crap Yeltsin got in his later years...if a figure like him wasn't head of the main part of the USSR (the Russian Federation), supported the fall, and was there to try and lead out of it...the Soviet collapse would likely have been far, far worse. 

Tonitrus

And with what Putin has done with the war and "annexations"...and leader that comes in, short of that popular revolution, will be instantly discredited by the power structure if they don't carry on Putin's war aims.

His colors nailed to the Russian mast (as grumbler rightly corrected me).

grumbler

The mobilization efforts have been a desperate gamble that they could somehow magically turn the tide in the war.  They cannot.  Even if the Russians could find 300,000 men available and willing to serve, even if they could train or equip them, it seems like Ukraine will still add more men to their forces in the next three months than Russia will to its.  The Ukrainian mobilization is just starting to hit its full stride as the easing of shortages allows the Ukrainians to fit out the reserves they mobilized but couldn't turn into frontline soldiers while the shortages persisted. 

A Ukrainian internet friend has been in reserve since the battles around Kiev and has just been ordered into a new regular unit.  He says that there are many thousands like him that were called up and then relegated to the reserves due to lack of equipment and logistics and are now being activated.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

DGuller

Even if the people who would forcefully remove Putin are pieces of shit as well, I still see a lot of good things coming from the coup.  First of all, in Russia you always clean the house after the change of leadership, so for quite some time it would be prudent for pedestrians on sidewalks to keep looking up and be prepared to jump out of the way.  Secondly, Putin still has legitimacy that none of the usurpers will initially have, so the new leader's power to do evil would be curtailed.  Finally, the new leaders would always have an option to blame all the military losses on Putin's idiocy and cut the losses if it looks like the only pragmatic solution, whereas Putin obviously doesn't have that option.

Jacob

#11081
Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2022, 07:56:36 PMI am just going to presume both of those guys are pieces of human shit equivalent to Putin. There will be no dawn for Russia I am afraid.

Oh yeah for sure. The upside of this is not that someone better might take over somehow, it's that the infighting among Putin's power-base is escalating - potentially weakening him (and weakening the war effort).

Jacob

Quote from: DGuller on October 05, 2022, 10:45:55 PMEven if the people who would forcefully remove Putin are pieces of shit as well, I still see a lot of good things coming from the coup.  First of all, in Russia you always clean the house after the change of leadership, so for quite some time it would be prudent for pedestrians on sidewalks to keep looking up and be prepared to jump out of the way.  Secondly, Putin still has legitimacy that none of the usurpers will initially have, so the new leader's power to do evil would be curtailed.  Finally, the new leaders would always have an option to blame all the military losses on Putin's idiocy and cut the losses if it looks like the only pragmatic solution, whereas Putin obviously doesn't have that option.

I agree with all of this, but I don't think this really means a coup is anywhere near being under way. What I think it is (though it's pure speculation) is courtiers fighting, positioning themselves to FIRST not be scapegoated for the current failures, and then SECOND to be in the best possible position if an opportunity to come out of top presents itself. But Putin is still top dog.

Jacob

Have seen some allegations that some of the "poor mobiks stranded somewhere randomly with no equipment, this is a joke" videos are staged.

One guy has appeared in several of them, a number of the "poor mobiks" are wearing balaclavas and their uniforms are sporting Wagner patches... and the videos are being promoted on pro-Wagner social media channels.

The Larch

Quote from: Jacob on October 06, 2022, 12:54:53 AMHave seen some allegations that some of the "poor mobiks stranded somewhere randomly with no equipment, this is a joke" videos are staged.

One guy has appeared in several of them, a number of the "poor mobiks" are wearing balaclavas and their uniforms are sporting Wagner patches... and the videos are being promoted on pro-Wagner social media channels.

What would be its purpose? Trick people into joining Wagner rather than the regular army?