Asthmatic Man Dies After NYPD Puts Him in a Chokehold

Started by Syt, July 18, 2014, 10:14:03 AM

Previous topic - Next topic
Print
Go Down Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6
User actions

OttoVonBismarck

#30
July 23, 2014, 12:35:25 PM
Due to laziness/disinterest I'd never looked at this video. Lawl, if that is considered police brutality these days I'm not sure how we expect the police to function going forward. I guess like the cops from Stallone's Demolition Man who politely walk up and firmly demand you surrender, and if you decline, they firmly repeat the demand until Wesley Snipes takes their electric-stun batons from them and uses them to blow up a futuristic electric car.

That was a headlock and wrestling the guy to the ground, nothing close to a choke. You can't use OC Spray or tasers anymore without people pussy bleeding, so that's literally the only option left outside of Ye Aulde billy club which has a long history of being bitched about as well. The dude is massively fat and asthmatic, but I've seen a lot of asthma attacks so I don't think that's what he was having--his voice was way too clear and not interrupted with extremely labored gasps for air.

The only thing I could see any fault with is exercising discretion on whether the guy needed arrested in the first place for a penny ante cigarette tax stamp issue. That seems like something that should have been a citation offense. To me that's really the only relevant question, whether he should have been arrested or not. But if the arrest was legally proper I don't actually understand how police are supposed to effect it against someone who doesn't want to be arrested without using physical force. I'd be interested in some theories on that.

derspiess

#31
July 23, 2014, 01:32:49 PM
We had a similar situation several years ago where some really huge dude jacked up on something was causing a disturbance outside a White Castle.  He wouldn't leave so the officers tried to arrest him.  He resisted, so they got out the billy clubs to try to subdue him.  He died from a heart attack as a result of the struggle, which caused a big shitstorm with a lot of people calling for the Cincy PD to start using "more humane" tasers.

So they started using tasers and eventually one suspect had a heart attack due to being tased.  Sure enough, the same voices screamed "police brutality".  Can't remember if they had any suggestions of what to use in place of tasers.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

11B4V

#32
July 23, 2014, 01:49:18 PM Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 01:51:33 PM by 11B4V
That's a rear naked choke (0:39) leading to positional asphyxia. That officer should be put in jail.
"there's a long tradition of insulting people we disagree with here, and I'll be damned if I listen to your entreaties otherwise."-OVB

"Obviously not a Berkut-commanded armored column.  They're not all brewing."- CdM

"We've reached one of our phase lines after the firefight and it smells bad—meaning it's a little bit suspicious... Could be an amb—".

derspiess

#33
July 23, 2014, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 23, 2014, 01:49:18 PM
That's a rear naked choke (0:39) leading to positional asphyxia. That officer should be put in jail.

What if it were accidental, like his hand slipped or something?
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

11B4V

#34
July 23, 2014, 02:01:59 PM Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 02:11:47 PM by 11B4V
Quote from: derspiess on July 23, 2014, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 23, 2014, 01:49:18 PM
That's a rear naked choke (0:39) leading to positional asphyxia. That officer should be put in jail.

What if it were accidental, like his hand slipped or something?

Dude, that officer put him in a rear naked choke intentionally. Wasnt any accident. The choke started the victims demise by restricting his breathing and his face down prone position continued to restrict it.


Also a big man like that will have problems breathing while face down too. Even with out people on top of him.



Look at 39 Seconds on the vid (start of the choke). The choke isnt released till 0:53 seconds on the vid when his on the ground. Garner is trying to roll on his side to get air. The cops are taking that as resisting.
"there's a long tradition of insulting people we disagree with here, and I'll be damned if I listen to your entreaties otherwise."-OVB

"Obviously not a Berkut-commanded armored column.  They're not all brewing."- CdM

"We've reached one of our phase lines after the firefight and it smells bad—meaning it's a little bit suspicious... Could be an amb—".

CountDeMoney

#35
July 23, 2014, 02:08:40 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 23, 2014, 01:49:18 PM
That's a rear naked choke (0:39) leading to positional asphyxia. That officer should be put in jail.

Looked to me like the hold was released about 3 seconds after he got him on the ground, though.

The chokehold didn't kill him, the weight of officers trying to cuff him while he was facedown did.  Hell, he'd probably die in his sleep if he slept on his belly.

Sorry, but when we live in a world where pharmaceutical companies warn you to "ask your doctor if your heart is well enough for you to have sex", people need to understand that there exists the probability that large, unhealthy cop fighters with severe issues will, on occasion, go tits up.

Personally, I would've kept talking to the dude for a while, especially since he was a known dirtbag, but that's why I was never invited to all the FOP's reindeer games.

OttoVonBismarck

#36
July 23, 2014, 02:12:14 PM
It just doesn't look like it to me, when he reaches forward from behind I don't see where he's actually got any part of his arm/wrist in any way pressed into his throat such that it would cause any choking. I could be wrong though, and it's hard to tell since you get a view of all of 0:02 of it, but to me it didn't look like a choke was ever locked in, but instead more of a freestyle wrestling move that would have probably been legal in my High School wrestling days (although not if he locked his hands in anyway.) I can't see clearly that he ever locks his hands/arms in a way that you'd see in a choke, and honestly that sort of take down would be borderline legal in HS freestyle wrestling (in which chokes of any kind, key locks, locking holds etc are banned in most states/NCAA.)

Plus it lasts all of 0:02 seconds and then he's on the ground talking. The fact that he's actually able to talk so clearly despite saying he can't breathe makes me suspect he was in arrest and the tightness sensation that comes from that is what he's confusing for being unable to breathe. When you genuinely cannot breathe you cannot speak. If you're short of breath it's usually obvious by labored speech/difficulty speaking due to fighting to get air while trying to speak.

I do agree positional asphyxia is a big possibility for a morbidly obese man on the ground like that with cops dropping their body weight on him.

I was expected a UFC style choke out, and I honestly just don't see that on the video. If you think that's so clear from the 0:39-0:41 clip, okay I guess, but to me I never even see both of the cop's arms actually connect in any way which is part of locking in a choke of that kind.

CountDeMoney

#37
July 23, 2014, 02:14:32 PM
You see all the ink on that cop's arm?  That's ex-service.  So that's the first fucking mistake in the story. Stop hiring soldiers to be police officers.  Brooklyn ain't Bagram.

OttoVonBismarck

#38
July 23, 2014, 02:16:15 PM
Actually I'll revise what I say about the video, at 0:39 I still see more of a take-down type move and not a clear choke. But at 0:50 when he's on the ground, right before the cop releases it, you can see he has the crook of his elbow wrapped around the guy's throat, which is definitely a choke, he's already partially releasing it at that point but it's likely he was choking the guy for a few seconds. But he was able to speak clearly after that so I do agree with CdM the choke didn't kill him and I think it's unlikely he died of asphyxiation but probably a cardiac event. The stress of the wrestling/being held down in general was probably enough to do that with or without the brief choke. But yes, since he does obviously have a choke locked in at 0:50 the officer broke departmental policy and I believe physical contact outside the shroud of legal law enforcement would be criminal assault, and under the "egg shell skull" theory I think the officer has some culpability in what came after that.

11B4V

#39
July 23, 2014, 02:17:24 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 23, 2014, 02:08:40 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 23, 2014, 01:49:18 PM
That's a rear naked choke (0:39) leading to positional asphyxia. That officer should be put in jail.

Looked to me like the hold was released about 3 seconds after he got him on the ground, though.

The chokehold didn't kill him, the weight of officers trying to cuff him while he was facedown did.  Hell, he'd probably die in his sleep if he slept on his belly.



That's what I said.  :rolleyes: The choke was applied for at least 10 seconds.


QuotePersonally, I would've kept talking to the dude for a while, especially since he was a known dirtbag, but that's why I was never invited to all the FOP's reindeer games.

Couldnt agree more. Most of the time the best weapon is the one below the nose.


That officer should be thrown in prison. Also, if it's against NYPD policy to use chokes, NY is going to be shelling out some cash.



"there's a long tradition of insulting people we disagree with here, and I'll be damned if I listen to your entreaties otherwise."-OVB

"Obviously not a Berkut-commanded armored column.  They're not all brewing."- CdM

"We've reached one of our phase lines after the firefight and it smells bad—meaning it's a little bit suspicious... Could be an amb—".

OttoVonBismarck

#40
July 23, 2014, 02:19:32 PM Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 02:21:44 PM by OttoVonBismarck
I find it interesting 11B's extensive medical training enables him to determine cause of a death for a person without ever having even seen, let alone been in contact with the cadaver. I don't believe it's clear from the video he died from asphyxiation (positional or otherwise) of any kind. It's obviously possible, but it'd be odd as a cause of death since he was clearly able to actually breathe.

Edit: I'm not sure how we would know how long the choke was locked in for in any case. Most people will lose consciousness from 10 seconds of a rear naked choke, and Eric Garner never did while the officer had him locked up. And since he was moving around substantially during it it's likely it was not locked in the entire time, especially since at 0:39 it's really not obviously actually locked in at all.

11B4V

#41
July 23, 2014, 02:20:49 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 23, 2014, 02:19:32 PM
I find it interesting 11B's extensive medical training enables him to determine cause of a death for a person without ever having even seen, let alone been in contact with the cadaver. I don't believe it's clear from the video he died from asphyxiation (positional or otherwise) of any kind. It's obviously possible, but it'd be odd as a cause of death since he was clearly able to actually breathe.

I believe your fucking stupid.
"there's a long tradition of insulting people we disagree with here, and I'll be damned if I listen to your entreaties otherwise."-OVB

"Obviously not a Berkut-commanded armored column.  They're not all brewing."- CdM

"We've reached one of our phase lines after the firefight and it smells bad—meaning it's a little bit suspicious... Could be an amb—".

OttoVonBismarck

#42
July 23, 2014, 02:22:36 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on July 23, 2014, 02:20:49 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 23, 2014, 02:19:32 PM
I find it interesting 11B's extensive medical training enables him to determine cause of a death for a person without ever having even seen, let alone been in contact with the cadaver. I don't believe it's clear from the video he died from asphyxiation (positional or otherwise) of any kind. It's obviously possible, but it'd be odd as a cause of death since he was clearly able to actually breathe.

I believe your fucking stupid.

Well I do remember being able to write at least at 6th grade level English which you obviously can't, so I guess if I'm fucking stupid you're fucking retarded.

11B4V

#43
July 23, 2014, 02:26:44 PM
QuoteEdit: I'm not sure how we would know how long the choke was locked in for in any case. Most people will lose consciousness from 10 seconds of a rear naked choke, and Eric Garner never did while the officer had him locked up. And since he was moving around substantially during it it's likely it was not locked in the entire time, especially since at 0:39 it's really not obviously actually locked in at all.

Whether the choke was locked in completely cutting his airway/restricting blood flow or partially, combine that with positional asphyxia, you mostly likely have a winner. The Choke started it off. 

"there's a long tradition of insulting people we disagree with here, and I'll be damned if I listen to your entreaties otherwise."-OVB

"Obviously not a Berkut-commanded armored column.  They're not all brewing."- CdM

"We've reached one of our phase lines after the firefight and it smells bad—meaning it's a little bit suspicious... Could be an amb—".

Admiral Yi

#44
July 23, 2014, 02:28:42 PM
What is meant by the "naked" in rear naked choke?
Print
Go Up Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6
User actions