In wake of teen deaths, Israel vows to crush Hamas

[Syt]

Turkish and Palestinian organizations plan a protest march with up to 10,000 participants against Israeli aggression in Vienna this Sunday. Main organizers will be the "Union of European Turkish Democrats" who also organized Erdogan's visit to Vienna recently.

[Tamas]

Really? What would you suggest?

Stop colonization, start negotiating with Palestinans without doing everything you can to provoke them, don't answer to Hamas provocations while the peace process starts.  Eventually, agree to dismantle most settlements, in exchange for no right of return to proper Israeli territory.

Colonisation is an asshole move but pretending that Hamas or most other Palestinian organisation would on the long term honour a deal where they revoke their claim on Israel is ridiculous. That means they lose their power. That's why they keep firing ineffective rockets and have their counterparts in Israel kill their civilians for them: they are a terror organisation they need this chaos and permanent war to stay in power. There will be no peace and stability while a force like Hamas has power, or has the chance to grab power. It is directly against their interest. Same goes for the hardliners in Israel: as soon as peaceful coexistence becomes possible the reason for them having any power disappears, so they will jump on any excuse of a provocation to destabilise things.

This thing, if ever, will unfortunately end in a bloodbath reminiscent of European WW2 ethnic cleansings. Total attrition is what will end it, nothing else.

[Tamas]

Turkish and Palestinian organizations plan a protest march with up to 10,000 participants against Israeli aggression in Vienna this Sunday.

Jobbik also protested with Palestinians in Budapest.

Pathetic. They are perfectly fine with Assad massacring Palestinian refugees and their own people (in fact, they support Assad). Not to mention other conflicts. Fucking anti-Semites, the lot of them.

[Zanza]

When you're attacked you fight back until the other side surrenders or you will be stuck like Israel in an endless cycle. That worked pretty well for us in WWII.  The Israelis should bomb the shit out of the Palestinians until they either give up or they are all dead, whichever comes first. That's how you end wars.

Didn't they try that when they occupied the Gaza Strip and the Westbank for decades after the Six Day War? They won a total victory and were able to suppress the Palestinians for a while until the first Intifada. But unlike the US after WW2, they weren't able to pacify the occupied territories and eventually withdrew.

[Viking]

Because I was not under the impression that the reported casualties were coming from Hamas sources.

Nothing Hamas says is worth the electrons used to form the words of course.

Well the "UN" giving the numbers gets them from the Health Department which is run/intimidated by HAMAS, for future reference.

[Hansmeister]

When you're attacked you fight back until the other side surrenders or you will be stuck like Israel in an endless cycle. That worked pretty well for us in WWII.  The Israelis should bomb the shit out of the Palestinians until they either give up or they are all dead, whichever comes first. That's how you end wars.

Didn't they try that when they occupied the Gaza Strip and the Westbank for decades after the Six Day War? They won a total victory and were able to suppress the Palestinians for a while until the first Intifada. But unlike the US after WW2, they weren't able to pacify the occupied territories and eventually withdrew.

And how did withdrawal work out for them?  The situation is certainly far more violent now. Until the Israelis break the Palestinians will to fight this will go on.

[derspiess]

Damn, Berkut went full Euroweenie on us.

Is there anything in between "ZOMG ISRAEL 1111111111 THEY CAN DO NO WRONG!!!!!!" and full Euroweenie anti-semite?

I never said anti-semite.  You did

Anyway, I'm just saying your rhetoric in this thread seems very close to what we've heard from the Euroweenie contingent (though not necessarily on Languish) for years.  And you keep trotting out that the Israelis are killing Palestinians as if they are targeting civilians.  They definitely are not, and are making efforts to avoid civilian casualties.  It's Hamas who are actually responsible for that, yet you seem to be letting them off the hook.

This is like Republicans calling a Obama a Jew hater because he only gave them $400 billions dollars in aid and suggested they might consider showing some restraint.

Man, you're developing an Obama fixation now.

[Viking]

I never said anti-semite.  You did

Anyway, I'm just saying your rhetoric in this thread seems very close to what we've heard from the Euroweenie contingent (though not necessarily on Languish) for years.  And you keep trotting out that the Israelis are killing Palestinians as if they are targeting civilians.  They definitely are not, and are making efforts to avoid civilian casualties.  It's Hamas who are actually responsible for that, yet you seem to be letting them off the hook.

Actually, give Berkut credit here. I showed him how one of his main assumptions was wrong and he conceded the point.

That is interesting - it would certainly be good news to find out that the Israeli bombing is not so indiscriminate as I had thought. I have to admit the numbers I've seen have just been what I've seen reported in the general media - and I also have to admit I hadn't considered that they might be bullshit.

Like I said, the particulars matter in these kinds of cases, when it comes to evaluating whether a military response is proportional to the risk weighed against the chances of causing collateral damage. So the questions of what percentage of casualties is actually civilian is critical.

[Valmy]

This thing, if ever, will unfortunately end in a bloodbath reminiscent of European WW2 ethnic cleansings. Total attrition is what will end it, nothing else.

Maybe.  I do not see how either side will have the opportunity.

[Duque de Bragança]

Turkish and Palestinian organizations plan a protest march with up to 10,000 participants against Israeli aggression in Vienna this Sunday. Main organizers will be the "Union of European Turkish Democrats" who also organized Erdogan's visit to Vienna recently.

I like how Erdogan and his ilk are against Israeli colonisation and call for Israeli withdrawal when they are still doing the same in Cyprus.

[Valmy]

I like how Erdogan and his ilk are against Israeli colonisation and call for Israeli withdrawal when they are still doing the same in Cyprus.

Things I will not mention when I go to the annual Turk Ramadan dinner next Sunday.

[derspiess]

I like how Erdogan and his ilk are against Israeli colonisation and call for Israeli withdrawal when they are still doing the same in Cyprus.

Things I will not mention when I go to the annual Turk Ramadan dinner next Sunday.

I'm gonna get so smashed at this year's Eid al-Fitr

[viper37]

Really? What would you suggest?

Stop colonization, start negotiating with Palestinans without doing everything you can to provoke them, don't answer to Hamas provocations while the peace process starts.  Eventually, agree to dismantle most settlements, in exchange for no right of return to proper Israeli territory.

Colonisation is an asshole move but pretending that Hamas or most other Palestinian organisation would on the long term honour a deal where they revoke their claim on Israel is ridiculous.

The same thing was said of Jordan.  And Egypt.  So far, the peace holds.

Israel would have nothing to lose really.  If a newly independant and contiguous palestine starts doing shit at the isreali border, they simply bomb&invade like they do now, push the people out, annex the territory.

An independant Palestine would find it in its best interest to control Hamas& other terrorists to avoid them using the territory to attack Israel.  Just like Syria is very careful not to allow Hezbloah to strike from its country, despite very obvious support.

[Malthus]

In short, to disagree with Berkut as to the effectiveness of a military campaign means you are an empathy-less monster.

I'm done arguing with you about this. You are not being at all reasonable, and are just slinging insults.

In short, you cannot respond to the facts, so are going to declare me "unreasonable" and storm away. OK.

If being "unreasonable" means I don't think killing a few hundred women and children and injuring a thousand more is a "reasonable" way to respond to being attacked by totally ineffective weapons, then I can live with "unreasonable".

And you can live with lacking empathy, I am sure, because you think killing three times as many civilians as combatants is fine - and you would totally feel the same way if it was Israelis being killed in the hundreds. Of course. Because you are so empathetic.

In short, unable to refute my facts, you resort to name-calling - "lacking empathy". Even when I was arguing with actual euroweenies on Paradox, none actually resorted to such nonsense.

I suppose the discerning reader will note I am *not* calling you a "Hamas apologist" or "useful Hamas idiot", because saying that would be dumb. I know full well you do not support Hamas. You are arguing because you believe your point to be right.

It is just sad that you cannot extend to others the same courtesy, of not dumbing down.

[Hansmeister]

Really? What would you suggest?

Stop colonization, start negotiating with Palestinans without doing everything you can to provoke them, don't answer to Hamas provocations while the peace process starts.  Eventually, agree to dismantle most settlements, in exchange for no right of return to proper Israeli territory.

Colonisation is an asshole move but pretending that Hamas or most other Palestinian organisation would on the long term honour a deal where they revoke their claim on Israel is ridiculous. That means they lose their power. That's why they keep firing ineffective rockets and have their counterparts in Israel kill their civilians for them: they are a terror organisation they need this chaos and permanent war to stay in power. There will be no peace and stability while a force like Hamas has power, or has the chance to grab power. It is directly against their interest. Same goes for the hardliners in Israel: as soon as peaceful coexistence becomes possible the reason for them having any power disappears, so they will jump on any excuse of a provocation to destabilise things.

This thing, if ever, will unfortunately end in a bloodbath reminiscent of European WW2 ethnic cleansings. Total attrition is what will end it, nothing else.

Of course it has been the Palestinians who have always refused to enter any deal so this is a purely academic question.  And Israel hasn't added any new colonies since the Clinton administrations (all new housing has been within already established settlements, mainly within the greater Jerusalem area). Israel should annex a few square miles after each Palestinian attack, maybe then they'll learn.