In wake of teen deaths, Israel vows to crush Hamas

[Valmy]

Israel is being taken over by religious nutters and their inability to even complete the merely moderately douchebaggy Kadima policy of disengagement is shameful.  Palestine is just as shit as ever.  So glad we are so intimately tied to this thing.

[The Minsky Moment]

Hamas will achieve nothing other than getting a few of its guys and a lot of civilian shields blown up.  It will deplete its few stocks of useful weapons pointlessly and prematurely tip its hand on new tactics.  Then they will declare victory and the "street" will rally to them because stupidity can be both contagious and difficult to cure.

Israel will achieve nothing other than running through a few billion dollars worth a munitions, and receiving a few more angry letters to editor in Aftonbladet or whatever.  The government will declare victory which will only prove yet again it has no clue what to do. 

John Kerry will spend his time dealing with Iranians, having wisely concluded that there are more reasonable people to talk with there.

[Valmy]

John Kerry will spend his time dealing with Iranians, having wisely concluded that there are more reasonable people to talk with there.

Sad but true

[Viking]

Languish really is dead if Israel hammering Gaza isn't able to inspire debate.

Debate about what?

Does Israel have a right to intervene in Gaza militarily? LanguishSiege Says Yes!
Is HAMAS evil? Languish Says Yes!
Is Israel comporting itself morally with proportionality and demonstrating international best practice in Gaza? LanguishSiege Says Yes!
Ultimately will the operation resolve the root cause of the conflict? Languish Says No!

no need to really debate this, is there? Though, a thread with links to news updates and interesting analysis might be worth-while.

Slight correction for you.

Are you suggesting Israel doesn't have the right under Article 51 of the UN Charter to wage war in self defense? Are you suggesting that Israel is NOT comporting itself morally with proportionality and demonstrating International best Practice in Gaza?

[The Minsky Moment]

Not sure if "international best practice" is well-defined for the case of when the enemy's force protection scheme is deliberately siting tunnels and bunkers under schools and hospitals. 
International lawyers can be imaginative if really pushed but you can't expect them to keep up with the sheer peversity of the likes of Hamas.

[DontSayBanana]

Are you suggesting Israel doesn't have the right under Article 51 of the UN Charter to wage war in self defense? Are you suggesting that Israel is NOT comporting itself morally with proportionality and demonstrating International best Practice in Gaza?

Getting carpet-bombing put under the heading of "self defense" is a stretch, at best.

Satisfies war boners?  Sure.  Justifiable as just defending oneself?  Not so much.

[Valmy]

Justifiable as just defending oneself?  Not so much.

I am not sure what 'justifiable' means in this conflict.  How often does either side do anything 'justifiable'?

[The Minsky Moment]

Getting carpet-bombing put under the heading of "self defense" is a stretch, at best.

Kind of racist, DSB.  Just because they are Arabs, doesn't mean it is carpet bombing.

[Malthus]

Are you suggesting Israel doesn't have the right under Article 51 of the UN Charter to wage war in self defense? Are you suggesting that Israel is NOT comporting itself morally with proportionality and demonstrating International best Practice in Gaza?

Getting carpet-bombing put under the heading of "self defense" is a stretch, at best.

Satisfies war boners?  Sure.  Justifiable as just defending oneself?  Not so much.

If Israel actually "carpet bombed" Gaza, there would be more than a couple of hundred casualties.

[Berkut]

Israel certainly is not carpet bombing Gaza.

However, their bombing of Gaza that is ongoing does seem well out of proportion to the threat posed by the rocket attacks.

[Valmy]

Their bombing of Gaza is an attempt to strike back at Hamas for the murder of those kids.  To look strong in the face of blah blah.  Proportionality has nothing to do with it.  It is about punishment and deterrence.

[Admiral Yi]

I thought their bombing was aimed at rocket launching areas.

[Hansmeister]

Israel certainly is not carpet bombing Gaza.

However, their bombing of Gaza that is ongoing does seem well out of proportion to the threat posed by the rocket attacks.

Only idiots are "proportional" when waging war.  Israel is going to insane lengths to avoid inflicting civilian casualties, something no other nation would do. Little good it does them.  If they were to carpet bomb gaza and then ethnically cleanse it they would hardly get a more severe hostile response by the international community than they get by being extremely over cautious. No matter what Israel does Israel will always be wrong.

[Tamas]

Israel certainly is not carpet bombing Gaza.

However, their bombing of Gaza that is ongoing does seem well out of proportion to the threat posed by the rocket attacks.

Only idiots are "proportional" when waging war.  Israel is going to insane lengths to avoid inflicting civilian casualties, something no other nation would do. Little good it does them.  If they were to carpet bomb gaza and then ethnically cleanse it they would hardly get a more severe hostile response by the international community than they get by being extremely over cautious. No matter what Israel does Israel will always be wrong.

Pretty much.

Being proportional in self-defense is the stupidest concept ever. It is not a jousting tournament. Your citizens are being attacked by the rulers of another country/city-state/whatever. The answer should be as severe as to make sure it never happens again. Israel is actually not doing that.

[Berkut]

Israel certainly is not carpet bombing Gaza.

However, their bombing of Gaza that is ongoing does seem well out of proportion to the threat posed by the rocket attacks.

Only idiots are "proportional" when waging war.  Israel is going to insane lengths to avoid inflicting civilian casualties, something no other nation would do. Little good it does them.  If they were to carpet bomb gaza and then ethnically cleanse it they would hardly get a more severe hostile response by the international community than they get by being extremely over cautious. No matter what Israel does Israel will always be wrong.

Only dumbasses claim that only idiots are "proportional" when waging war, since in fact every single nation in a position like Israel (including Israel) does in fact strive to be propertional when waging war.

This is trivially proven by nothing that the US did not break out the ICBMs for Gulf War I.

The facts are very simple:

In this latest conflict, the total number of casualties that Hamas rocket attacks have caused in Israel: 0

On the other hand, Israel has inflicted some thousand plus casualties in the Gaza strip, the vast majority of which are civilians. They don't hold the entire blame for that, but they certainly get some of it.

It is, of course, a completely fucked up situation, for which there are no good answers. But there are lots of different bad answers, and bombing the shit out of Gaza resulting in large numbers of civilian casualties in a fashion that is guaranteed to just piss off the people you are occupying while doing exactly nothing to resolve any of fundamental issues (and in fact exacerbate those issues) is just another bad choice.