How old is "too old" to go to grad school?

[merithyn]

I was hearing the other day that (some of) the professional associations are pushing for a master's requirement for engineering. I'll see if I can find the article.

Here's an article from 2012:

LINK

Six years after the nation's umbrella engineering licensing body embraced a so-called Model Rule that would extend by 30 the number of extra credit-hours BS-degreed engineers must have to gain a professional license, no state licensing board has made it a reality.

But as a targeted 2020 deadline draws closer, proponents are revving up their campaign for a required graduate degree. They do so against a rising tide of opposition across the industry, professional societies and academia.

Caught in between are students facing the dilemma of boosting the engineering's status, competence and pay against the added cost, time and necessity of gaining an expanded first professional degree.

The American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) has long advocated a broader "body of knowledge" for engineers due to falling credit-hours for most engineering BS degrees and more complex demands on their project leadership skills. ASCE has raised the effort's profile with a new promotional brand, Raise the Bar (RTB), which includes a dedicated website and a full-time staff manager.

"If we want to meet challenges and be prepared to protect the public, engineers need more depth of knowledge," says Blaine Leonard, a Utah transportation official, former ASCE president and key RTB spokesman. "You can't get it in programs under pressure." Proponents would like to see engineering attain the same professional status as medicine and accounting. The National Academy of Engineering and the National Society of Professional Engineers support the idea.

Licensing That Works

Opposition to all or parts of the initiative is being led by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME), which has the second-largest group of licensees—estimated at 10% to nearly a third, compared to about 60% of civils. The group issued a new position paper this year and has a dedicated website, LicensingThatWorks.org.

ASME contends the changed requirements would scare off engineering prospects, be a cost burden to students and hard-pressed schools and employers, and should be addressed in the accrediting process or with continuing education.

"At a time when the world needs more engineers, it seems inappropriate to make an engineering education significantly less attractive to new entrants," says Marc Goldsmith, a Massachusetts consultant and ASME president. He says eight industry groups support its arguments, including ASHRAE and chemical engineers. Other engineering societies are largely ignoring the controversy since grads in their disciplines have licensing exemptions.

American Society of Engineering Educators is split. Some school deans endorsed the ASME position, others issued a separate opposition statement, and faculty are on both sides. "It may be worth considering whether a one-size-fits-all approach is the best system," says Joseph Helble, engineering dean at Dartmouth College.He also wonders how the added requirement will aid students' problem-solving skills and allow them to "make better connections" to other disciplines.

But says James K. Nelson Jr., dean of engineering and computer science at the University of Texas, Tyler, and a RTB supporter, "a lot of it comes down to confusion about what is really being talked about. ASCE is not saying that someone with just a BS can't practice; you can still be an engineer under the supervision of someone else with a license. This doesn't say the BS has no value."

Nelson notes that "the way the Model Law is written, it doesn't have to be a Master's degree. There are two or three different ways to satisfy the requirement."

The RTB initiative also has support from about 90% of civil-engineering department heads and faculty, says ASCE. Raimondo Betti, Columbia University department head, says many employers already limit hires to those with graduate degrees. "That's the entry level," he says. "Companies that want cheap labor do a disservice to the profession." European engineering degrees are generally obtained in five years and there is more "respect" for the profession, he says.

ASCE's Leonard and two other leading RTB advocates—Jeffrey Russell, a vice provost at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, and Stephen J. Ressler, civil-engineering department chair at the U.S. Military Academy—took their argument to a convention of 300 engineering educators last June in what was billed as the "first-ever open discussion."

Despite the educator group's stance, they say a post-presentation poll indicated support from two-thirds of respondents. "We find, in general, if we're allowed to explain the rationale, more people have a tendency to support this," says Leonard. RTB proponents take issue with the opposition's lack of data to back its arguments (see first related link). Blaine terms a "red herring" opponents' claim that the initiative could squeeze the pipeline of future engineers.

Competitive Asset

Supporters see RTB as critical to maintaining the U.S. industry's edge. "Engineering leadership of complex projects and large programs is one of the truly competitive assets" of American design firms and contractors, says Richard D. Fox, chairman and CEO of CDM Smith. "This requires the very commitment to advanced learning as a basis for licensure and, thus, leadership" that RTB advocates.

[Valmy]

2020?  Ok just enough time to finish and get my four years so I can be licensed.  Whew.

[Ideologue]

If I'd gotten one more question right, I would have had a 175 instead of a 173.

Yale or fail.  YALE OR FAIL.

[Ideologue]

I just read an article about a manufacturing skills gap and I'm thinking about getting a three-semester machinists' cert.  I could go work for Boeing and help kill foreigners.

[Valmy]

I just read an article about a manufacturing skills gap and I'm thinking about getting a three-semester machinists' cert.  I could go work for Boeing and help kill foreigners.

Good.  NATO needs your help to defend Latvia.

[LaCroix]

That's absolutely true, and I don't think the LSAT measures all the skills that law school demands.  But depending on the environment you entered LS in, with practice and a retake, you could've negotiated tens of thousands off your tuition or gotten into a better school (or a combination of A and B).

the LSAT is useful because there has to be another factor aside from grades to get into law school. undergrad is too easy because the average person can pick a soft major, work diligently, and obtain a high GPA. also, LSAT scores don't usually matter after getting into law school. if it stuck with you, then the system would be flawed

TLS advice isn't science, though it's generally very useful. my school doesn't really offer scholarships to incoming students since tuition is so cheap. plus, in retrospect i think i made the better decision. with my grades and background, i could transfer into T20. but given the growth of the legal market here, there's no need

[Valmy]

See Ide?  Just need to move to North Dakota.

[Ideologue]

FUUUCKKKtweh3erop etn2w3052RKierkeifddlsfdkldfeg

[mongers]

I just read an article about a manufacturing skills gap and I'm thinking about getting a three-semester machinists' cert.  I could go work for Boeing and help kill foreigners.

Good.  NATO needs your help to defend Latvia.

They already have good engineers, I bought a piece of garden steelwork and the thing was well made and a neat design, Made in Latvia. 

[LaCroix]

FUUUCKKKtweh3erop etn2w3052RKierkeifddlsfdkldfeg

if it helps, i'm going to be in debt, too. 40-50k 

[Ideologue]

What's that?  My system crashed.

[Valmy]

FATAL ERROR

I am going to end up with about 9K in debt.  Ah well at least it is absurdly low interest.

[Ideologue]

I edited because I thought the intent of my post wasn't clear.   $40k is absurdly low for LS debt.

[Iormlund]

They already have good engineers, I bought a piece of garden steelwork and the thing was well made and a neat design, Made in Latvia. 

I hope they are better than the Polish folks I'm supervising.

[LaCroix]

I edited because I thought the intent of my post wasn't clear.   $40k is absurdly low for LS debt.

my situation is unique, but the fact remains that my school is 1/5th the cost of georgetown. and, there are students here who attend because they had no desire to move out of state, so there's enough competition to keep it interesting. while the doors to biglaw are essentially closed to me, it kind of doesn't matter.

the burnout rate for biglaw is something like 66% within 5 years. a lot of people use their time in biglaw to pay off their gargantuan amount of debt obtained from attending top schools which allowed them to get into biglaw in the first place. for them, they almost literally have to do well. because if they don't land biglaw, they're stuck with 200k in debt. even for the top 30%~ that do get biglaw, their starting salary is (avg) 160k with an annual increase of 20k, but the majority get out after a few years

biglaw is designed to churn and spit out most associate attorneys. until recently, i thought it was just the hours. but, i think it's also the type of the work - there's no fulfillment or reward, since large firms tend to have major clients and the partners aren't going to dare let someone with only 1-4 years of experience handle anything substantive. so, there are some attorneys who earn more (per year) than they might ever make within a few years of graduating law school, only to spend the rest of their career making less (though with a more job satisfaction). there are obviously many this doesn't apply to, but i think it happens more often than not