What is the difference between Canada and the US re: socialism

[crazy canuck]

Interesting.

I wonder if that's an adaptation of the collegiate system from Oxbridge? I know in the UK that still seemed to be the model even in the 19th century even though now UCL, ICL, KCL, Queens College (as it was) Belfast are nowhere near like that.

What does Faculty refer to in the US? I got my degree, for example, from the Faculty of Arts which by the sounds of it would be a College in the US.

Faculty in the US refers to the teachers collectively.  The faculty senate, for instance, is their elected representatives.

Yes, faculty refers to professors generally but it is also has other meanings.


In most universities in both the US and Canada "Faculty" refers to the department of study.  For example the Faculty of Law, Faculty of medicine etc.  The Senate is something which exists in bicameral universities where there is a division of function between a Board of govenors which generally has decision making power over the operation of the University and the Senate which generally have decision making authority over academic decisions.  There is generally overlap.  So for example, in most universities, the Board must consult with the Senate before making decisions regarding academic programs which might be offered by the university.

[Jacob]

Community colleges are a separate thing in the US from college per se.  My understanding is that this is not the case in Canada.

I can't speak too much to American community colleges, but we have community colleges in Canada as well. Here are two in the Vancouver area:

http://www.douglascollege.ca
http://www.vcc.ca

They focus on things like high school upgrades, ESL, practical certificates (food industry training), some forms of training in health sciences, IT etc; generally the less prestigious but hands-on required training, I believe.

We used to have some other colleges which did things like nursing program, granting two-year certificates, and provide university accredited courses for students aiming to get into university; but a few years ago they got upgraded to University Colleges or something like that, and can now grant bachelor degrees. They don't, however, have graduate programs or (I believe) any research programs or fancy things like that.

http://www.langara.bc.ca

... I don't know how that compares to what you guys have in mind when you say "community college", but I think VCC and Douglas are the same thing... while Langara is roughly equivalent to a smaller (non-community) college?

As an aside, my old art school got upgraded from an "institute" to a "university" recently, and I think the main thing was the expansion of their graduate degree program.

[Jacob]

Re: Faculty - a quick google shows that Harvard has seven faculties. The Harvard Faculty of Arts and Sciences is the largest and has "some thirty departments and programs," as well as an endowment of $32.3 Billion as of February 2014.

(All this from Wikipedia)

[crazy canuck]

We used to have some other colleges which did things like nursing program, granting two-year certificates, and provide university accredited courses for students aiming to get into university; but a few years ago they got upgraded to University Colleges or something like that, and can now grant bachelor degrees. They don't, however, have graduate programs or (I believe) any research programs or fancy things like that.

those are essentially still community colleges.  The main thing that changed was their name - they are now known as special purpose universities.

It was political sleight of hand because the government of the day promised to increase university seats in the province.  But rather than increase funding at the universities they changed the name of the community colleges and presto - more "university" seats.

[Jacob]

those are essentially still community colleges.  The main thing that changed was their name - they are now known as special purpose universities.

To my mind, they were (and are) in a different tier than the community colleges that have "community" in their name (like VCC and Douglas). I've taken courses at UBC, Langara, and VCC and from an undergrad perspective I'd group UBC and Langara much closer to one another than Langara and VCC. Of course when it comes to professional schools and graduate programs it's a different story.

"Special purpose universities" sounds about right. Seems reasonable that they should be able to grant bachelor degrees in their signature programs where the quality is comparable to (or sometimes better) than equivalent university programs.

[crazy canuck]

"Special purpose universities" sounds about right. Seems reasonable that they should be able to grant bachelor degrees in their signature programs where the quality is comparable to (or sometimes better) than equivalent university programs.

"Special purpose universities" are different from normal universities.  They do the same thing they did when they were community colleges.  Their roles are mandated by statute to do things like specialized technical teaching, adult education and the like. 

When the name change was proposed I argued that it would confuse people into thinking that these institutions were providing degrees equivalent to universities.  It seems I was correct.

[crazy canuck]

Jacob, in case you are interested, here is the legislative direction of what a special purpose university does.

A special purpose, teaching university must do all of the following:

(a) in the case of a special purpose, teaching university that serves a geographic area or region of the province, provide adult basic education, career, technical, trade and academic programs leading to certificates, diplomas and baccalaureate and masters degrees, subject to and in accordance with regulations under section 71 (3) (c) (i);

(b) in the case of a special purpose, teaching university that serves the whole province, provide applied and professional programs leading to baccalaureate and masters degrees, subject to and in accordance with regulations under section 71 (3) (c) (ii);

[Jacob]

When the name change was proposed I argued that it would confuse people into thinking that these institutions were providing degrees equivalent to universities.  It seems I was correct.

Are you saying that the Bachelor of Science (Nursing) from Langara is not equivalent to a Bachelor of Science (Nursing) from UBC?

If that's the case, that is indeed pretty confusing.

[Jacob]

I looked it up... Langara is not a special purpose university, but a college (I was confused there; Emily Carr got upgraded not Langara). But Langara still grants bachelor degrees in certain applied sciences (like nursing).

Emily Carr is a "special purpose university".  You are not suggesting that the BFA and MFA degrees they offer are of lesser worth than the ones UBC do, are you?

If people think the special purpose universities offer the same breadth of degree programs as regular universities, that would be confusing; but I think that where they offer degrees in their specialty they are equivalent to (and I've heard it argued, better than) the same degree from a regular university, so if that's what people think then they are not confused

[crazy canuck]

IIf people think the special purpose universities offer the same breadth of degree programs as regular universities, that would be confusing; but I think that where they offer degrees in their specialty they are equivalent to (and I've heard it argued, better than) the same degree from a regular university, so if that's what people think then they are not confused

Its not just breadth.  Emily Carr is a perfect example.  That program is much more hands on then the more academic program at UBC or another university.  One way to prove that beyond doubt - one could never obtain a PhD at a special purpose university.  Why?  Because they were never intended to be true universities.

[Jacob]

I think we may be talking at cross purposes here... I'm trying to suss out if you are talking shit about Emily Carr's BFA (or indeed MFA) compared to UBC's and alleging that one is confused if one somehow thinks they are equivalent. I thought you sort of did, but I'm not sure...

There is no risk of confusing the value of Emily Carr's PhD with that of UBC's because (as you so rightly said) Emily Carr doesn't offer one; and UBC doesn't offer one in applied art either, only art history. It seems you have to leave BC if you want a PhD in someone related to making art.

[grumbler]

I can't speak too much to American community colleges, but we have community colleges in Canada as well. Here are two in the Vancouver area:

http://www.douglascollege.ca
http://www.vcc.ca

They focus on things like high school upgrades, ESL, practical certificates (food industry training), some forms of training in health sciences, IT etc; generally the less prestigious but hands-on required training, I believe.

We used to have some other colleges which did things like nursing program, granting two-year certificates, and provide university accredited courses for students aiming to get into university; but a few years ago they got upgraded to University Colleges or something like that, and can now grant bachelor degrees. They don't, however, have graduate programs or (I believe) any research programs or fancy things like that.

http://www.langara.bc.ca

... I don't know how that compares to what you guys have in mind when you say "community college", but I think VCC and Douglas are the same thing... while Langara is roughly equivalent to a smaller (non-community) college?

As an aside, my old art school got upgraded from an "institute" to a "university" recently, and I think the main thing was the expansion of their graduate degree program.

Community colleges in the US cannot grant bachelor's degrees (anywhere, I believe).  They only grant associate's degrees.  They are otherwise similar to what you describe in Canada.

[crazy canuck]

There is no risk of confusing the value of Emily Carr's PhD with that of UBC's because (as you so rightly said) Emily Carr doesn't offer one; and UBC doesn't offer one in applied art either, only art history. It seems you have to leave BC if you want a PhD in someone related to making art.

That is the point Jacob, Special purpose universities offer specialized applied training.  Whether you want to get in a knot over that being lesser or better is up to you.

[crazy canuck]

I can't speak too much to American community colleges, but we have community colleges in Canada as well. Here are two in the Vancouver area:

http://www.douglascollege.ca
http://www.vcc.ca

They focus on things like high school upgrades, ESL, practical certificates (food industry training), some forms of training in health sciences, IT etc; generally the less prestigious but hands-on required training, I believe.

We used to have some other colleges which did things like nursing program, granting two-year certificates, and provide university accredited courses for students aiming to get into university; but a few years ago they got upgraded to University Colleges or something like that, and can now grant bachelor degrees. They don't, however, have graduate programs or (I believe) any research programs or fancy things like that.

http://www.langara.bc.ca

... I don't know how that compares to what you guys have in mind when you say "community college", but I think VCC and Douglas are the same thing... while Langara is roughly equivalent to a smaller (non-community) college?

As an aside, my old art school got upgraded from an "institute" to a "university" recently, and I think the main thing was the expansion of their graduate degree program.

Community colleges in the US cannot grant bachelor's degrees (anywhere, I believe).  They only grant associate's degrees.  They are otherwise similar to what you describe in Canada.

Community colleges dont grant degrees here either.  The point I made to Jacob is that converting a number of community colleges to special university status was really just political sleight of hand so the government could say they had increased the number of university seats in the Province without actually increasing the funding to universities to create those seats.

So we end up with a wierd hybrid in this Province. 

[Jacob]

There is no risk of confusing the value of Emily Carr's PhD with that of UBC's because (as you so rightly said) Emily Carr doesn't offer one; and UBC doesn't offer one in applied art either, only art history. It seems you have to leave BC if you want a PhD in someone related to making art.

That is the point Jacob, Special purpose universities offer specialized applied training.  Whether you want to get in a knot over that being lesser or better is up to you.

No knots on that end. I think I just read too much into a throwaway line in your post. It's all good