UKIP poster boy is a racist immigrant, film at 11

[Martinus]

Everything else being equal, I imagine Poland would prefer those people work in Poland than somewhere else, as their earnings can be taxed and they consume locally produced goods and services.

Not really. First of all, unemployment in Poland is around 8-9%. It's not crushing by any stretch (at least if you compare this to the likes of Spain) but it means that there is not enough jobs in the market for all who want to work - so emigration deals with that (and unemployment among people under 30% is much higher and they are the ones most likely to emigrate).

Secondly, as I already said, they usually do not move permanently but tend to leave their families here so they keep sending money home.

Thirdly (while many of course are dodging taxes in Poland), they technically do have to pay taxes here, or at least the difference between what they already pay in the UK and what they would have to pay here (since they are residents for tax purposes). Given that the tax free amount is much lower in Poland than it is in the UK, this is not insignificant.

[Admiral Yi]

Why would you need to change the planning laws?

I'm assuming planning laws restrict government construction as well as private.

[Admiral Yi]

Not really. First of all, unemployment in Poland is around 8-9%. It's not crushing by any stretch (at least if you compare this to the likes of Spain) but it means that there is not enough jobs in the market for all who want to work - so emigration deals with that (and unemployment among people under 30% is much higher and they are the ones most likely to emigrate).

This would be a very reasonable response if I had posted they should return to Poland regardless of jobs, but I didn't.

Thirdly (while many of course are dodging taxes in Poland), they technically do have to pay taxes here, or at least the difference between what they already pay in the UK and what they would have to pay here (since they are residents for tax purposes). Given that the tax free amount is much lower in Poland than it is in the UK, this is not insignificant.

Not sure I follow.  If taxes are lower in Poland, surely they have no tax liability left over after they've paid their UK taxes.

[Martinus]

No, the tax free amount (and progressive tax thresholds) are lower in Poland.

So, for example, imagine that the tax free amount in the UK is $1000 per month. Once you reach it you pay 19%, and only once you reach $5000 per month you pay the higher bracket.

At the same time, in Poland, the tax free amount is $500 per month - once you reach it you pay 19% and you get into the higher (32%) bracket upon reaching $1500 per month.

Now imagine you are earning $2000 per month. In the UK the tax on this would be $190 but in Poland that would be taxed at $350 ($190 for the 1000 between 500 and 1500; and $160 for the 500 between 1500 and 2000).

So in a situation like this you would have to pay the excess $160 in Poland after having paid the $190 in the UK.

[Sheilbh]

I'm assuming planning laws restrict government construction as well as private.

Yeah, sure. There have been some planning law liberalisations and there could, probably be more, but it's lead to a fair bit of Tory unhappiness about and attacks on Cameron for trying to destroy the countryside.

At the  government-built housing side of things I don't think planning restrictions are the problem. Local authorities used to build around 90 000 social houses (of variable quality) every year. The assumption when they stopped doing that - especially after right-to-buy - was that private sector social housing housing associations would fill the gap. I'm not sure the capacity is there. Housing associations build about 20 000 a year which is a big part of the difference.

Also from a London perspective I think local government could take a longer-term view which would be good. There's lots of brownfield sites that won't be developed because the cost of cleaning them up and making them fit for housing is so high that there wouldn't be a profit margin for a private developer. I think a local authority looking to increase housing stock planning long-term rented accommodation and some sales could take a different view on them.

But it's really difficult in terms of policy - there's a generational conflict here that's difficult to resolve. What we ultimately want is for developers and existing home owners (who'll have a large say over planning) to conspire to allow the construction of enough houses to slow down or even decrease the value of their property. I can't see why either developers or home-owners would want to do that.

Secondly, as I already said, they usually do not move permanently but tend to leave their families here so they keep sending money home.

So far I believe only around between a third and half have returned. A lot of Poles have actually settled, I know a few who've got married over here. I think you're right in terms of intentions, but then life gets in the way and they meet someone, or get a start in their career.

[Sheilbh]

Thirdly (while many of course are dodging taxes in Poland), they technically do have to pay taxes here, or at least the difference between what they already pay in the UK and what they would have to pay here (since they are residents for tax purposes). Given that the tax free amount is much lower in Poland than it is in the UK, this is not insignificant.

Surely they'd normally be tax residents here as they'd be here over 180 days in a year?

[Martinus]

Thirdly (while many of course are dodging taxes in Poland), they technically do have to pay taxes here, or at least the difference between what they already pay in the UK and what they would have to pay here (since they are residents for tax purposes). Given that the tax free amount is much lower in Poland than it is in the UK, this is not insignificant.

Surely they'd normally be tax residents here as they'd be here over 180 days in a year?

Polish state still wants its due from its citizens.

[Admiral Yi]

No, the tax free amount (and progressive tax thresholds) are lower in Poland.

So, for example, imagine that the tax free amount in the UK is $1000 per month. Once you reach it you pay 19%, and only once you reach $5000 per month you pay the higher bracket.

At the same time, in Poland, the tax free amount is $500 per month - once you reach it you pay 19% and you get into the higher (32%) bracket upon reaching $1500 per month.

Now imagine you are earning $2000 per month. In the UK the tax on this would be $190 but in Poland that would be taxed at $350 ($190 for the 1000 between 500 and 1500; and $160 for the 500 between 1500 and 2000).

So in a situation like this you would have to pay the excess $160 in Poland after having paid the $190 in the UK.

Gotcha.

But my original point was Poland would be happier getting the whole $350 than the $160.

Although I could imagine if wages are sufficiently higher in the UK than Poland, Poland might actually come out ahead by shipping more plumbers over.

BTW, how the hell did so many Poles acquire plumbing skills?

[Warspite]

No, the tax free amount (and progressive tax thresholds) are lower in Poland.

So, for example, imagine that the tax free amount in the UK is $1000 per month. Once you reach it you pay 19%, and only once you reach $5000 per month you pay the higher bracket.

At the same time, in Poland, the tax free amount is $500 per month - once you reach it you pay 19% and you get into the higher (32%) bracket upon reaching $1500 per month.

Now imagine you are earning $2000 per month. In the UK the tax on this would be $190 but in Poland that would be taxed at $350 ($190 for the 1000 between 500 and 1500; and $160 for the 500 between 1500 and 2000).

So in a situation like this you would have to pay the excess $160 in Poland after having paid the $190 in the UK.

But how does it work in practice? The tax-free threshold is higher in Britain, for example, because the cost of living is much higher.

EDIT: Actually Marty this EU website says only people resident in Poland pay Polish income tax:

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/income-taxes-abroad/poland/index_en.htm

[Josquius]

The economy seems to generate enough jobs, there would be skill shortages if UKIP had their way, but there is a big housing problem. British planning law is highly restrictive and we are currently constructing about 100,000 houses per annum, meanwhile household formation is running at 250,000 per annum........it is a recipe for overcrowding and tension.

I want the state to get involved in this and start producing social housing in large quantities until the pressure is relieved. We are probably talking about 250,000 houses a year for a the forseeable future.

Our cities need a big slap to realise medium rise flats arent a bad thing

[Warspite]

The economy seems to generate enough jobs, there would be skill shortages if UKIP had their way, but there is a big housing problem. British planning law is highly restrictive and we are currently constructing about 100,000 houses per annum, meanwhile household formation is running at 250,000 per annum........it is a recipe for overcrowding and tension.

I want the state to get involved in this and start producing social housing in large quantities until the pressure is relieved. We are probably talking about 250,000 houses a year for a the forseeable future.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories but I think there are far too many vested interests in keeping house prices propped up. The problem is:
- The young, who suffer from rising house prices, tend not to vote
- Rising/stable house prices at this high plateau are keeping consumption going
- More straightforward NIMBYism
- Our Cabinet is stuffed full of rich property owners.

I do not think the last point is trivial.

[Sheilbh]

Our cities need a big slap to realise medium rise flats arent a bad thing

Yep. But we've a pretty dodgy record of building higher density areas. The last time councils built houses are a big part of the reason people don't like high density housing.

Also another Guardian headline - 'Labour party at war over Emily Thornberry's 'snobby' tweet'.

Christ's sake

[Warspite]

Our cities need a big slap to realise medium rise flats arent a bad thing

Yep. But we've a pretty dodgy record of building higher density areas. The last time councils built houses are a big part of the reason people don't like high density housing.

It boggles the mind. My grandparents received a flat in 1960s Yugoslavia - where along the Dalmatian coast, available land is even more squeezed than the UK will ever be - that was spacious and solidly built, if functional rather than luxurious. Today we still use this flat, and it's nicer than four of the five London homes I've lived in (across Muswell Hill, Herne Hill, Colliers Wood, Parsons Green and Pimlico).

We are unable to build to the quality that Communist Yugoslavia could sixty years ago.

[Warspite]

Also: does anyone else find Owen Jones insufferable?

[Admiral Yi]

- Our Cabinet is stuffed full of rich property owners.

I do not think the last point is trivial.

Surely your planning ordinances aren't set at the national level, are they?