Would you be in favor of keeping your country together with force

[celedhring]

So yeah, if a nation decides to secede and the next day starts disenfranchising/repressing people from other cultural groups opposed to such secession, or even within its own cultural group, then a degree of force is warranted.

That would legitimize use of force against a hypothetical Catalonia. Unless all residents are allowed to vote it would be de facto disenfranchising all those who keep their Spanish citizenship.

Well no, because keeping Spanish citizenship would've been their choice, I assume.

No, their choice was to live in Spain, and they had bought homes there, built businesses, developed careers ...

Now it's no longer Spain. They didn't choose that.

You're changing the tale here. It's about voting in a future independent Catalonia or not being happy with the consequences of an hypothetical referendum they would've lost?

[Duque de Bragança]

Vive la Corse libre!

Bon débarras ! Et tant qu'on y est, les Antilles aussi (Guadeloupe et Martinique).

[celedhring]

That one should use all possible ways to defuse the situation. Again, going back to Larchie's starting statement, if after trying everything one only has the tanks to keep a country together, the tanks should stay in their garages.

(provided, as I said, that the other side hasn't started using violence themselves to achieve secession).

How exactly can they unilaterally secede without using any violence at all?  They are going to have to take over government buildings and roads and property and so forth.  Even if there was no physical violence involved it is inherently an act of aggression.  And no I disagree with Larchie's blanket statement.  Whether or not the tanks should be used depend on the how and why.

And I approve of tanks going out if physical violence is exerted.

Again my belief is that in a non-opressive nation (as stated in the OP) this breaking point will never be reached and a compromise will always be achieved one way or the other. The breaking point wasn't reached in Quebec, and the separatists lost the referendum. It hasn't been reached in Scotland (and my bet is the separatists will lose there too), I would be very surprised if it was reached in Spain either (and most polls point to a separatist defeat there too).

[Jacob]

So yeah, if a nation decides to secede and the next day starts disenfranchising/repressing people from other cultural groups opposed to such secession, or even within its own cultural group, then a degree of force is warranted.

That would legitimize use of force against a hypothetical Catalonia. Unless all residents are allowed to vote it would be de facto disenfranchising all those who keep their Spanish citizenship.

Well no, because keeping Spanish citizenship would've been their choice, I assume.

No, their choice was to live in Spain, and they had bought homes there, built businesses, developed careers ...

Now it's no longer Spain. They didn't choose that.

If they can still keep their homes, operate their businesses, and continue their careers in the hypothetical new Catalonian state, and do not have to give up their Spanish citizenship to do so, how are they being repressed?

[Grey Fox]

Vive la Corse libre!

Bon débarras ! Et tant qu'on y est, les Antilles aussi (Guadeloupe et Martinique).

Vive la Réunion libre!

[Jacob]

As to the poorly thought out question: no, keeping the country together in and of itself is not enough of a reason to use force.

If Quebec wants to secede in a process that seems legitimate, then I'd be against the use of force to keep them in. On the other hand, I can definitely see scenarios in which the use of force would be justified. If say the FLQ is somehow reborn and attempts to affect separation through anti-democratic means, then the use of force is justified in my view.

[Iormlund]

You're changing the tale here.

Not at all. Those people either lose their voting rights where they live or in Spain, whereas they could exercise both before.

[Iormlund]

If they can still keep their homes, operate their businesses, and continue their careers in the hypothetical new Catalonian state, and do not have to give up their Spanish citizenship to do so, how are they being repressed?

They can't vote anymore to influence policy where their have homes, operate their businesses and develop their careers. They've been disenfranchised, which Celed argues would be grounds for the use of force.

[celedhring]

If they can still keep their homes, operate their businesses, and continue their careers in the hypothetical new Catalonian state, and do not have to give up their Spanish citizenship to do so, how are they being repressed?

They can't vote anymore to influence policy where their have homes, operate their businesses and develop their careers. They've been disenfranchised, which Celed argues would be grounds for the use of force.

If Catalan citizenship and full enfranchisement is offered to everybody residing in Catalonia, I don't know where the problem lies. If somebody choses to keep his Spain citizenship and is offered legal residence instead, again I don't see where the problem lies. It sucks, but I'm not arguing advantages of secession here, I'm arguing about motives to start shooting up people.

[Josquius]

The problem with citizenships that I see, is what happens with the Catalans (or for a real world example the Scots) Spanish (/British) citizenship?
All the time I see Scots just assuming they'll be able to keep their British citizenship too. That just doesn't seem right to me. Too much a case of having their cake and eating it.

[celedhring]

Languish army of lawyers will probably be more knowlodgeable about this, but AFAIK unless there's a dual citizenship treaty in place between England and Scotland from day 1, Scots would have to choose.

The problem in Spain (and I suppose England too), is that millions of Catalan/Scots would probably qualify for UK citizenship due to relatives, etc... so laws should probably be amended to fully exclude them.

[The Brain]

The debate here, I believe, is whether a democratic, free nation should use force to avoid secession, since democratic process should ensure any possible grief could be adressed. I believe that if a strong majority in any population wants to secede and achieves this majority peacefully, then it's not something worth killing people about. If the other side starts shooting first then of course it should be answered with force.

I disagree strongly with this as a general principle.  Because this is entirely arbitrary what sort of population we are talking about and where.  Does a State (or province or whatever) have this right but a county (or district or whatever) doesn't?  How about a village?  What about 100 militia men and their families on a mountain in Idaho?  And why not?  Why do some groups have absolute rights others do not?

No any group that wants to secede does not have an absolute right no matter what arbitrary territory they can get a majority inside.  But if it is negotiated peacefully with the central government under agreed terms than sure.  But we are specifically talking about a situation where there is no peaceful political solution.  In that situation me being in favor of using force entirely depends on the circumstances.

I'm not saying that one should stand up and applaud the secession. We are talking of starting a civil war over it.

It's only civil if you win.

[Jacob]

If they can still keep their homes, operate their businesses, and continue their careers in the hypothetical new Catalonian state, and do not have to give up their Spanish citizenship to do so, how are they being repressed?

They can't vote anymore to influence policy where their have homes, operate their businesses and develop their careers. They've been disenfranchised, which Celed argues would be grounds for the use of force.

Why should they not have dual citizenship?

[The Larch]

IMO should it come to that some kind of dual citizenship system would be an unavoidable consequence.

[Ed Anger]

Ugh dual citizens. Pick a side fence riders.