The Vietnam War

[The Brain]

It's mainly about Special Forces officer obesity.

[Norgy]

I didn't really see Apocalypse Now as a anti-war or pro-war film.  It's a film that takes place during the war, but the war is not the main issue.  I thought of it more as a surreal horror film were things get crazier and crazier as they go up river.

As I think most people know, it is "Heart of Darkness" by Conrad. The war is a sideshow, the complete and utter insanity of Col. Kurtz is supposed to be the main theme. To me, though, having read up a bit on it, it's seeing Martin Sheen get more and more full of drugs.

[Ed Anger]

Evidently, the pool of people who are inspired by the thought of ending up a divorced drunken failure put on impossible missions hunting after psychotic madmen on their own side in the middle of a pointless war is larger than I imagined. 

Yes, that's the aspect of the movie everyone focused on.  Not the Air Cav scene or any of the other war-glorifying aspects of the film.

It's just awesome.
I bloody love that scene with choppers flying in, Wagner blasting. "Charlie don't surf".
Yes, it's hardly what you'd think some Euroweenie social democrat would love, but in some way it just explains the madness of war better than a five hour documentary.

I want to have your manbabies.

[The Brain]

Charlie don't surf
I'm in trouble deep

[grumbler]

Hmm, I thought from your comments (several years ago) about trying marijuana when it was decriminalized in Ann Arbor that you were in college already by 1972-74.  But I see that they actually kept the civil infraction ordinance intact until 1990.

I grew up in Ann Arbor, as well as attending the university.  I think that's where the confusion may have arisen.

[alfred russel]

Hmm, I thought from your comments (several years ago) about trying marijuana when it was decriminalized in Ann Arbor that you were in college already by 1972-74.  But I see that they actually kept the civil infraction ordinance intact until 1990.

I grew up in Ann Arbor, as well as attending the university.  I think that's where the confusion may have arisen.

I didn't know you were Native American.

[grumbler]

I didn't know you were Native American.

I very much doubt any of us have the lifespan left to listen to you list all the things you don't know.

[alfred russel]

I didn't know you were Native American.

I very much doubt any of us have the lifespan left to listen to you list all the things you don't know.

I also doubt that any of us do, but I know you don't. 

[Sheilbh]

Well no. I don't think the alliance between Chinese communists and Vietnamese communists can be considered an alliance of convenience, anymore than the links between Chinese nationalists and Vietnamese nationalists can be. They were natural ideological allies in the cold war world.

But there's more than one world, or way of looking at it going on at this time. The US and the USSR are in the Cold War world. To a large extent the UK, France, Africa and chunks of Asia are thinking about colonial power and national liberation. The French and the British routinely used Communism (and casting their situation in Cold War terms) to get American help or for the Americans to step into their boots.

The moral case in the 40s and 50s was obvious--just look at Stalin. Ho was of course different, but his government was still nasty and repressive as hell. You can't ally with people like that and credibly keep the moral high ground or continue to credibly stand up to Communism.

Well for a large chunk of the 40s Stalin was Uncle Joe and wasn't this the time of 'he may be a bastard, but he's our bastard?' I don't think moral high ground entered into it.

Though you're right on anti-Communism.

In the 40s and 50s, communism was still generally united as a worldwide force.

Tito was expelled from Cominform in 48 and had purged Yugoslavia of pro-Soviet leaders way before then.

What arrangement could NV and the US have come to other than throwing South Vietnam under the bus, and what could NV possibly have given to the US that would have justified the price?

It would have been like Yugoslavia rather than throwing South Vietnam under the bus. That's not happening if the French are opposed in re-imposing their rule. Possibly something to help Chiang?

[alfred russel]

Sheilbh, if we are talking about 1945-1946, it is worth remembering that Vietnam is something like the 5,000th priority of the period. It is really hard to overstate how much of an afterthought it was in US policy.

However, Ho Chi Minh at the time didn't control Vietnam, or even North Vietnam. There were a number of different factions trying to control different parts of the country. It was in chaos. I don't see any plausible way for Ho Chi Minh to project force out of Vietnam and into China in that period in order to support Chiang Kai Shek. Which again, really wouldn't make sense anyway since Chaing was anti communist and Ho Chi Minh and many in his movement had recent ties to Chinese communists. It was really the Chinese Communists that put Ho Chi Minh in power after they took effective control of Southern China.

[Eddie Teach]

Hmm, I thought from your comments (several years ago) about trying marijuana when it was decriminalized in Ann Arbor that you were in college already by 1972-74.  But I see that they actually kept the civil infraction ordinance intact until 1990.

I grew up in Ann Arbor, as well as attending the university.  I think that's where the confusion may have arisen.

I didn't know you were Native American.

It was known as "Pangaea" then.