The Vietnam War

[alfred russel]

Isn't it kind of crazy to think that Vietnam vets are all old and about to enter die off phase? Only a few more batters to go before our generations step to the plate. 

Anyway, we never talk about Vietnam here. I was reading about Vietnam recently, so figured I'd start a thread. Basically, I think Nixon & the hawks were as wrong in the 1950s as the hawks in the early 2000s. But I'm not sure Nixon basically didn't get it right once he became president (if only because of public pressure) and the general strategy would have found success if attempted by Johnson. Incursions into Laos and Cambodia with stepped up bombing of the North and an overall strategy of Vietnamization were the only policies that really made sense with an American commitment.

The Johnson administration really messed up by putting in so many troops without being willing to cut off the Ho Chi Minh Trail (at the least). The troops not only began to look like occupiers, but with so much prestige on the line made South Vietnam an extremely valuable target for the USSR.

Also, our long run strategy looks really bad. We put in an enormous amount of effort in the 60s, but in the mid 70s weren't willing to put in far far less to keep the south from being overrun.

[Eddie Teach]

Hell no, we won't go.

[alfred russel]

Hell no, we won't go.

Too old, too fat. 

[Ideologue]

The only strategy that ever made sense was invading or at least destroying the north.  We weren't willing to do that, so why bother doing anything?

[Valmy]

The winning strategy, making a deal with the Commies in 1954 to unite the country but be allied with us against the Soviets and company seems obvious now.  But prior to Nixon and Kissinger we were politically unable to execute that sort of strategy even if we were capable of considering it.

[The Brain]

With just a few more drag marks the US would have won.

[Caliga]

Hey, my dad and father in law are both Vietnam vets.  Don't say they're about to enter 'die off phase'!

[Caliga]

The winning strategy, making a deal with the Commies in 1954 to unite the country but be allied with us against the Soviets and company seems obvious now.  But prior to Nixon and Kissinger we were politically unable to execute that sort of strategy even if we were capable of considering it.

How would we have been able to convince Ho Chi Minh to ally Vietnam with the United States?  Wouldn't he have just assumed we wanted to assume the colonial mantle from the French?

[derspiess]

The winning strategy, making a deal with the Commies in 1954 to unite the country but be allied with us against the Soviets and company seems obvious now.  But prior to Nixon and Kissinger we were politically unable to execute that sort of strategy even if we were capable of considering it.

That's a bit far-fetched.  I don't see the Vietnamese communists being good allies for us in the Cold War.  More like they take whatever aid we give them, say "ha ha suckers" and join the Soviet sphere of influence regardless.

[alfred russel]

Hey, my dad and father in law are both Vietnam vets.  Don't say they're about to enter 'die off phase'!

Sorry. 

[Valmy]

That's a bit far-fetched.  I don't see the Vietnamese communists being good allies for us in the Cold War.  More like they take whatever aid we give them, say "ha ha suckers" and join the Soviet sphere of influence regardless.

The Vietnamese had no love for the Soviets.  They pretty much dislike everybody.  All we really needed was just for them not to be Soviet allies and I think we could have swung that.

[derspiess]

The Vietnamese had no love for the Soviets.  They pretty much dislike everybody.  All we really needed was just for them not to be Soviet allies and I think we could have swung that.

The thought of them being another Yugoslavia is an interesting one-- I'm just awfully skeptical we could have pulled it off.  Let alone the notion of willingly condemning the entire country to suffering under communism.

[Admiral Yi]

The Vietnam War was not winnable using means that were cost effective for the US.  It would have been better to just let the North invade the South.

[alfred russel]

The Vietnam War was not winnable using means that were cost effective for the US.  It would have been better to just let the North invade the South.

Two questions for Yi...

--if in the mid 60s the US had cut off the Ho Chi Minh Trail (and never allowed the sihanouk trail to open), what would have happened?

--forget winning the war. Losing the war involved the north invading the south with conventional forces, which was comparatively easy for the US to stop. What if we reduced our commitment in the 70s to just prevent that?

[Caliga]

I believe the war could have been winnable had we invaded North Vietnam directly, but in that situation China surely would have directly intervened and nobody wanted to fight another Korean War.