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Started by Sheilbh, December 30, 2019, 08:48:06 PM

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Sheilbh

:w00t:

The annual release of historic government papers to the National Archives is on :w00t:

So the Malcolm Rifkind (then Secretary of Defence) proposed associate NATO membership for Russia in 1995 to help assuage Russian fears/bring them into the fold.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/31/russia-associate-membership-nato-malcolm-rifkind-chequers-boris-yeltsin
QuoteThe Foreign Office was cautious. A treaty between Russia and Nato to develop a new relationship might well be needed but the "relationship must not be based on false Russian expectations that she will, one day, become a member of the [Nato] alliance.

"We must not repeat, in the Nato context, the position the EU has got itself into in relation to Turkey – of promising the prospect of entry which it has not intention of honouring. This could be profoundly destabilising."

Official notes drafted for the prime minister before the seminar expressed similar doubts. "What sort of relationship with Nato can we offer Russia as a price for Nato enlargement? Is the notion of associate membership, as suggested by the defence secretary, realistic? (NB important that we keep confidential the fact that we are considering the idea) ...

"If Russian representatives were present at all Nato meetings, what effect would this have on Nato's own decision-making? How much do we care about Ukraine's or Belarus' independence?"
Ken Clarke dismissed the idea as farcical. Meanwhile the UK embassy in Washington observed a Yeltsin state trip:
QuoteHe consumed "wine and beer greedily ... and regretted the absence of cognac. One of his aides took a glass of champagne from him when the aide felt enough was enough and he was alcoholically cheerful at his press conference with Clinton."

The FCO also prepared a statement in the case of Yeltsin's sudden death as they felt, "he is a bad insurance risk".

The Anglo-French relationship was not great and both were cold, calculating cynics in the face of Srebenica - though there are still redacted parts of these files:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/31/papers-reveal-anglo-french-distrust-before-srebrenica-massacre

And, as literally no-one could have predicted, the dozens of individuals tortured and murdered by the IRA for being informants included people who were not, in fact, informants:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/30/some-of-iras-victims-mistakenly-killed-as-informers-files-show

Given that there are later allegations that UK intelligence turned both Martin McGuinness on the Army Council and the head of the IRA's sort-of internal security, it's quite possible a lot of the people killed were actually committed republicans.

More amusingly John Bruton, then Taoiseach warned EU governments against referendums: "all governments are unpopular. Given the chance, people would vote against them in referendums. Therefore avoid referendums. Therefore don't raise questions which require them, such as the big versus the little states."

They also include John Bercow's hard-right CV from back on his days in the ultra-dry wing of the Tory Party, and John Major's reasons not to go to the Atlanta Olympics:
QuoteMajor's devotion to cricket is well known. A file on a possible overseas trip for him to the 1996 Atlanta Olympics shows, however, that it may have been a pivotal factor in preventing him visiting the Games.

A memo from Rachael Reynolds in his office in June that year noted that: "I understand you are thinking of staying here for the Lords Test in preference to going to the Olympics ... Turning to the disadvantages of you going: First and probably most relevant is that you will be very tired at the end of July. The programme is not likely to make that worse but it is a long flight and the weather will be hot in Atlanta at that time.

"Second, you will miss the Lord's Test and we are unlikely to be able to pick up a satellite channel in America which carries cricket (do they do ball by ball commentary on the World Service?)."

Reynolds failed to persuade him to attend the Olympics, despite listing "more pros than cons" and telling him: "You have established your street cred in this area so well, it would be a pity to miss an opportunity which only comes up every four years."

In the end she had to inform the British Olympic Association: "The prime minister has decided that his programme as the end of July is too heavily committed for him to be able to travel to Atlanta."

Also Major decided not to join Bill Clinton in a visit to Belfast to avoid the risk of having to shake hands with Gerry Adams (this was, after all, pre-ceasefire). There were also fears about Clinton claiming the limelight:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/31/john-major-advised-not-join-bill-clinton-1995-belfast-visit-gerry-adams-archives
QuoteMajor heeded advice and did not go to Northern Ireland. His private secretary noted: "The prime minister does not think that Clinton's visit is the right occasion or context for him to meet Adams for the first time. Sinn Féin will need to earn such a meeting."

There were also behind-the-scenes remarks about the president positioning himself as peacemaker. A Foreign Office briefing note stated: "There will be a tendency for Clinton to seek the limelight as an Irish peacemaker."

A No 10 note to Major from his private secretary, Edward Oakden, said of Clinton: "What he wants is a demonstration that the peace process, which he (according to the Clinton gospel) helped launch, is still in being."
Let's bomb Russia!

Razgovory

Does our government (US) do something like this?  It's always nice to what the people in government really believed at the time.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

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Valmy

Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2019, 10:51:02 PM
Does our government (US) do something like this?  It's always nice to what the people in government really believed at the time.

Well...I mean eventually everything becomes available...but it is really complicated and varies depending on all sorts of byzantine requirements of the Feds.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Tamas

Tnaks Sheilbh!

BTW I have been wondering, is it a sort of awkwardness of Britain regarding Ireland that they keep calling the Irish PM Taoiseach? For example, they dont bother calling the Hungarian PM Miniszterelnök :p

Sheilbh

I think part of it is that Taoiseach translates as "chief" or "leader". So it's technically a different title and one which is tough to translate, like the German Chancellor.

But yeah, it is weird. I also feel like it's fairly recent and if you look at, say, historic footage they'd refer to Sean Lemass as the Irish Prime Minister.
Let's bomb Russia!

The Brain

Quote from: Sheilbh on December 31, 2019, 05:41:41 AM
I think part of it is that Taoiseach translates as "chief" or "leader". So it's technically a different title and one which is tough to translate, like the German Chancellor.

But yeah, it is weird. I also feel like it's fairly recent and if you look at, say, historic footage they'd refer to Sean Lemass as the Irish Prime Minister.

Führer seems to be the closest German equivalent.
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Josquius

Quote from: Tamas on December 31, 2019, 04:47:19 AM
Tnaks Sheilbh!

BTW I have been wondering, is it a sort of awkwardness of Britain regarding Ireland that they keep calling the Irish PM Taoiseach? For example, they dont bother calling the Hungarian PM Miniszterelnök :p

English speaking Irish people also use that term. It's a gaelic word but has been taken into English, as we often do.

If the Hungarian president was keen to stress that his title didn't neatly translate into the English word president and was a something different then officially at least we would take that word into English too.
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Sheilbh

Other interesting story - John Major also wanted an "Atlantic Community" free trade deal between NAFTA and the EU.
QuoteThe "Atlantic community" would ensure a "broader base for transatlantic solidarity than purely defence and security issues," one document said. On the free trade area idea, the memo asked officials to investigate "the feasibility of linking the European Union and Nafta in a common free-trade area". Neither plan was pursued.
Although it was one of many schemes to try and recapture some momentum from Blair.

Also, interestingly, Ministers were alread raising issues in 1995 with PFI, which were largely accurate in retrospect. But they were told by the Treasury to keep going.
Let's bomb Russia!

viper37

Quote from: Razgovory on December 30, 2019, 10:51:02 PM
Does our government (US) do something like this?  It's always nice to what the people in government really believed at the time.
I believe 50 years after an event has happenned, documents in the US can be declassified.  Ultimately, the President decides what is to be declassified or not.  I think some documents regarding JFK were re-classified by Clinton.
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